4 ms·

She well understands that being a member of Five Eyes is of huge value to UK industry, as the point of dragnet surveillance is using competitor nations' secrets

by alrs 9y ago

She well understands that being a member of Five Eyes is of huge value to UK industry, as the point of dragnet surveillance is using competitor nations' secrets for economic advantage, not for fighting terrorism. These people aren't stupid.

jjoonathan 9y ago
They aren't stupid, but I'd suspect they've drunk their own kool-aid, which seems to be the standard operating procedure at organizations gone awry. Especially towards the top where you get selection pressure for confidence. The ability to think rationally is tightly coupled to the ability to rationalize so smart people aren't actually less likely to participate in collective madness.
JadeNB 9y ago
> These people aren't stupid. "These people have selfish reasons for what they're doing" is different from "These people aren't stupid."
TimonKnigge 9y ago
> as the point of dragnet surveillance is using competitor nations' secrets for economic advantage, not for fighting terrorism. Source / examples? Seems like a rather extraordinary claim.
- alrs 9y ago
  This has been going on for decades, and was an issue before 9/11/2001. http://articles.latimes.com/1999/sep/30/news/mn-16631 http://articles.latimes.com/1999/sep/30/news/mn-16631 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/24/news/mn-2072 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/24/news/mn-2072 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/30/airbus-could-sue-following-allegations-germany-spied-on-them-for-the-us https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/30/airbus-coul...
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  Private Eye have covered this kind of thing since the 80s and various aerospace, arms, middle eastern infrastructure deals etc. All the countries do this - an explicitly stated aim of security services is to protect economic interests as well as security.
- stordoff 9y ago
  Likely difficult to find proof or definitive examples of it happening, but Intelligence Services Act 1994[0] states: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3 > [GCHQ shall] monitor or interfere with electromagnetic, acoustic and other emissions and any equipment producing such emissions and to obtain and provide information derived from or related to such emissions or equipment and from encrypted material; [... said functions] shall be exercisable [...] in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom in relation to the actions or intentions of persons outside the British Islands There's very similar language for SIS. [0] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3
whipoodle 9y ago
Some of them can be surprisingly stupid. Not everyone is a canny deep-state actor.

by alrs 9y ago

jjoonathan 9y ago

They aren't stupid, but I'd suspect they've drunk their own kool-aid, which seems to be the standard operating procedure at organizations gone awry. Especially towards the top where you get selection pressure for confidence. The ability to think rationally is tightly coupled to the ability to rationalize so smart people aren't actually less likely to participate in collective madness.

JadeNB 9y ago

> These people aren't stupid. "These people have selfish reasons for what they're doing" is different from "These people aren't stupid."

TimonKnigge 9y ago

> as the point of dragnet surveillance is using competitor nations' secrets for economic advantage, not for fighting terrorism. Source / examples? Seems like a rather extraordinary claim.

alrs 9y ago
This has been going on for decades, and was an issue before 9/11/2001. http://articles.latimes.com/1999/sep/30/news/mn-16631 http://articles.latimes.com/1999/sep/30/news/mn-16631 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/24/news/mn-2072 http://articles.latimes.com/2000/feb/24/news/mn-2072 https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/30/airbus-could-sue-following-allegations-germany-spied-on-them-for-the-us https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/apr/30/airbus-coul...
dreamfactored 9y ago
Private Eye have covered this kind of thing since the 80s and various aerospace, arms, middle eastern infrastructure deals etc. All the countries do this - an explicitly stated aim of security services is to protect economic interests as well as security.
stordoff 9y ago
Likely difficult to find proof or definitive examples of it happening, but Intelligence Services Act 1994[0] states: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3 > [GCHQ shall] monitor or interfere with electromagnetic, acoustic and other emissions and any equipment producing such emissions and to obtain and provide information derived from or related to such emissions or equipment and from encrypted material; [... said functions] shall be exercisable [...] in the interests of the economic well-being of the United Kingdom in relation to the actions or intentions of persons outside the British Islands There's very similar language for SIS. [0] http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/13/section/3

whipoodle 9y ago

Some of them can be surprisingly stupid. Not everyone is a canny deep-state actor.