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I'm impressed that the American car companies have embraced electric technology so quickly. I'm also disappointed that the Japanese companies are falling behin

I'm impressed that the American car companies have embraced electric technology so quickly. I'm also disappointed that the Japanese companies are falling behind. The Prius was a very innovative car when it was first released 20 years ago (that's right, the first Prius was a 1997 model!), but it is falling behind. The Nissan Leaf is just not competitive anymore, and I see no sign of a newer version of it with better range. However, these new electric cars are mostly of interest to homeowners. People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes, and all but the newest luxury apartments lack charging stations. Relying on public charging infrastructure is not realistic, and relying on charging at work is unwise -- it will limit your next job opportunity to companies that also have charging stations, unless you are willing to replace your car. Even relying on charging at an apartment is unwise, because it will limit where you can move to. So, I guess electric car ownership is effectively another perk of home ownership.

sien 9y ago
The 2018 Nissan Leaf has a 400km range and has charge times like a Tesla. http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed/ http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed...
- jansanchez 9y ago
  > Nissan claims the new Leaf’s 40 kWh battery will provide 150 miles of range under EPA testing and 400km (248.5 miles) under the Japanese JC08 cycle From: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-electric-official-range-features-specs https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-...
- graycat 9y ago
  For the 400 km, is the A/C or heater on, or the headlights, the speed nice and slow, not much cargo, and heavy use by the driver of pedals? I still want a 20 gallon gas tank and a lot of filling stations.
bovermyer 9y ago
I don't know that this is true. To compare, would you expect every house to have a gas station built in? Granted, a full electric charge doesn't last as long as a full tank of gas, but that's going to be decreasingly relevant as battery technology improves.
- thinkling 9y ago
  What matters isn't how long the charge lasts, but how long it takes, and how awkward that is when you really need a charge. If I remember right, the stats for the Bolt were that (when empty) it can charge 100mi of range in 30 minutes, but after that the charge rate falls off quickly, and a full charge actually takes much longer than you'd expect. If you get unlucky and get to a charge point but the charger is occupied, you're going to be waiting up to 30 mins to get a 30 min charge, taking an hour to gain 100mi range. If I'm on a longer drive, that's just not something I want to put up with. Imagine going skiing at a place that's 100mi away. It's winter, so you're running the heater in the car, and the ski resort is inherently uphill from where you live, so you use more than 50% of the car's range to get there. When you get to the ski resort, early arrivers have already filled up the chargers. So now you have to park somewhere else (possibly a shuttle ride away from the lifts), and come back off the mountain at lunch see if a charger is available, fetch your car, maybe hang around until the others actually move their cars off the chargers, etc. Ugh. Sorry, but I don't want to be the early adopter in that situation, and I'm wondering if there will be enough chargers to make the problem disappear once EV adoption is high. Range extenders in the car make a lot of sense to me.
  - graycat 9y ago
    Fiction? Just what is it you have against fiction? Fiction can be fun! Besides, we're talking way out there, and between now and then can be some delays, etc. We had electric cars way back there, likely before the Model T. The problem is the same -- the batteries. Long ago a Ford executive said, "You build me a good battery, and I'll build you a good electric car.". We're still waiting for that good battery. We also hoped for a good capacitor from EEStore, and we're still waiting for that, too. And we tried steam engines and gas turbine engines. For my car, the problems have been corrosion and the transmission, not the engine. Otherwise the problems have been suspension bushings and springs past their fatigue life. Engines? Mostly fine. Currently a big problem is that it's > $1000 in labor to remove the dashboard to replace the lights that burned out. Mostly those Tesla batteries solve a problem I don't have and give me new problems I don't have and won't be able to solve.
foxfired 9y ago
They are embracing it now, that's mostly because Tesla has been testing the grounds for the rest. Don't forget that GM had not only terminated all leases then went out of their way to crush all their EV1s[1]. Like a public execution to show that electric cars are bad. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  The Chevy Volt has been around for as long as Tesla (Roadster) has been available to the public. Revenge of the Electric Car [2] is a great follow-up to Who Killed the Electric Car. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Electric_Car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Electric_Car
  - thinkling 9y ago
    To be clear, I think the Volt is relevant because it's a plug-in series-hybrid that drives like an EV: it drives on battery power while available, and then uses the engine mostly as a generator. It came out in 2011 and I would imagine that it gave GM a great testbed to learn more about electric drivetrains (than they knew from the EV1) before putting out the Bolt.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
protomyth 9y ago
GM was headed to fuel cell cars (even talking about how you could power your home at one point) and put a lot of money into electric after their first attempts were deemed unacceptable. Its been a slow burn for them.
aphextron 9y ago
> The Nissan Leaf is just not competitive anymore, and I see no sign of a newer version of it with better range. Depends on your needs. My Leaf has been incredible. I paid $5k for an older one off lease and it gets me round trip to work/school/running errands for essentially zero marginal cost. People are stuck in an ICE mindset where they can't imagine a car being useful with less than 400 miles range. But the reality is that you never end up using a full charge, and charging is available everywhere (in cities) now. I can guarantee that there will be a class of ultra cheap EV's that stick to the 100-150 mile range as it is all most urban dwellers need on a day-to-day basis. If the price/kWh of lithium ion batteries continues falling at it's current rate, we'll see sub $20k ~150 mile range EV's for sale within 5 years. >People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes, and all but the newest luxury apartments lack charging stations. Relying on public charging infrastructure is not realistic, and relying on charging at work is unwise -- it will limit your next job opportunity to companies that also have charging stations, unless you are willing to replace your car. Even relying on charging at an apartment is unwise, because it will limit where you can move to. Not really. I live in a tiny Bay Area apartment and street park my Leaf. Charging has never been a problem. My office has level 2, there's a level 2 across the street from me, and there's two level 3's on the way home if I need a quick top off. Granted we have better infrastructure than most, and I'll admit there's definitely some getting used to how it all works, but I'll never go back to an ICE.
- thinkling 9y ago
  This is all well and good if you're in a two-car household, but we only have one car and we do pretty regularly do longer road trips, e.g. to go skiing. Even with a 240mi Bolt those trips could be awkward.
  - strange_quark 9y ago
    Then get a PHEV. I've had my Volt for almost a year now and although I don't drive a ton, I've managed to get about 80% of my driving done on pure electric. The other 20% is road trips where I still get ~40-45 mpg.
mrlyc 9y ago
> People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes Perhaps there could be combined parking meters and charging stations. You would pay a certain amount of money if you just wanted to park and you would pay more if you wanted to charge your car too.
- r00fus 9y ago
  That's an amazing idea. Also imagine solar covered parking which could be a good moneymaker (sell energy and/or sell preferred parking spots).
  - KGIII 9y ago
    I wonder how viable covering parking lots would be in areas where you get a lot of snow. At some point, you will have to find a way to remove it - sometimes even a bunch of ice. But, it has a bonus of keeping the precipitation that would land on your vehicle. That might just be its best feature.
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  Those are slowly beginning to pop up in more places. It possibly the most common charger style you see popping up in garages and streets in major cities. Something I find interesting: There are cities investigating adding chargers that blend in to lamp posts (especially historic lamp posts where adding meters would be unwanted in a historic neighborhood).
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  These are in a lot of municipal parking lots for the cities/towns that fill the land between San Jose and San Francisco. At the coast haven't seen any in the smaller rural towns only 30 miles away.
WorldMaker 9y ago
> So, I guess electric car ownership is effectively another perk of home ownership. It's another chicken-and-egg bootstrapping problem, though. If everyone had electric cars, there would be more market demand for electrified street parking, and there would be more demand for electric parking spaces in apartment complexes. At some point it becomes less of a market differentiator (luxury apartments use it to stay competitive) and increasingly a market force (every apartment needs it to stay relevant). Given the pace that the car manufacturers seem to be moving, that transition likely needs to start happening sooner rather than later. (2023 is six years from now.)
- DennisP 9y ago
  Fortunately it's a chicken-and-egg problem where all the homeowners already have eggs.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
KGIII 9y ago
I think you will see good electrics coming from Japan. The e-class racing teams have been doing great work, as have their f-class. They are certainly capable of holding their own. They also have some good hybrids that will make their way to personal vehicles.
Slimbo 9y ago
In London street lamps are being converted into EV charge stations for kerbside charging: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-street-lamps-electric-car-charging-points-ubitricity-tech-firm-hounslow-council-richmond-a7809126.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-street-lamps...

sien 9y ago

The 2018 Nissan Leaf has a 400km range and has charge times like a Tesla. http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed/ http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed...

jansanchez 9y ago
> Nissan claims the new Leaf’s 40 kWh battery will provide 150 miles of range under EPA testing and 400km (248.5 miles) under the Japanese JC08 cycle From: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-electric-official-range-features-specs https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-...
graycat 9y ago
For the 400 km, is the A/C or heater on, or the headlights, the speed nice and slow, not much cargo, and heavy use by the driver of pedals? I still want a 20 gallon gas tank and a lot of filling stations.

bovermyer 9y ago

I don't know that this is true. To compare, would you expect every house to have a gas station built in? Granted, a full electric charge doesn't last as long as a full tank of gas, but that's going to be decreasingly relevant as battery technology improves.

thinkling 9y ago
What matters isn't how long the charge lasts, but how long it takes, and how awkward that is when you really need a charge. If I remember right, the stats for the Bolt were that (when empty) it can charge 100mi of range in 30 minutes, but after that the charge rate falls off quickly, and a full charge actually takes much longer than you'd expect. If you get unlucky and get to a charge point but the charger is occupied, you're going to be waiting up to 30 mins to get a 30 min charge, taking an hour to gain 100mi range. If I'm on a longer drive, that's just not something I want to put up with. Imagine going skiing at a place that's 100mi away. It's winter, so you're running the heater in the car, and the ski resort is inherently uphill from where you live, so you use more than 50% of the car's range to get there. When you get to the ski resort, early arrivers have already filled up the chargers. So now you have to park somewhere else (possibly a shuttle ride away from the lifts), and come back off the mountain at lunch see if a charger is available, fetch your car, maybe hang around until the others actually move their cars off the chargers, etc. Ugh. Sorry, but I don't want to be the early adopter in that situation, and I'm wondering if there will be enough chargers to make the problem disappear once EV adoption is high. Range extenders in the car make a lot of sense to me.
- graycat 9y ago
  Fiction? Just what is it you have against fiction? Fiction can be fun! Besides, we're talking way out there, and between now and then can be some delays, etc. We had electric cars way back there, likely before the Model T. The problem is the same -- the batteries. Long ago a Ford executive said, "You build me a good battery, and I'll build you a good electric car.". We're still waiting for that good battery. We also hoped for a good capacitor from EEStore, and we're still waiting for that, too. And we tried steam engines and gas turbine engines. For my car, the problems have been corrosion and the transmission, not the engine. Otherwise the problems have been suspension bushings and springs past their fatigue life. Engines? Mostly fine. Currently a big problem is that it's > $1000 in labor to remove the dashboard to replace the lights that burned out. Mostly those Tesla batteries solve a problem I don't have and give me new problems I don't have and won't be able to solve.

foxfired 9y ago

They are embracing it now, that's mostly because Tesla has been testing the grounds for the rest. Don't forget that GM had not only terminated all leases then went out of their way to crush all their EV1s[1]. Like a public execution to show that electric cars are bad. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

WorldMaker 9y ago
The Chevy Volt has been around for as long as Tesla (Roadster) has been available to the public. Revenge of the Electric Car [2] is a great follow-up to Who Killed the Electric Car. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Electric_Car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenge_of_the_Electric_Car
- thinkling 9y ago
  To be clear, I think the Volt is relevant because it's a plug-in series-hybrid that drives like an EV: it drives on battery power while available, and then uses the engine mostly as a generator. It came out in 2011 and I would imagine that it gave GM a great testbed to learn more about electric drivetrains (than they knew from the EV1) before putting out the Bolt.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

protomyth 9y ago

GM was headed to fuel cell cars (even talking about how you could power your home at one point) and put a lot of money into electric after their first attempts were deemed unacceptable. Its been a slow burn for them.

aphextron 9y ago

> The Nissan Leaf is just not competitive anymore, and I see no sign of a newer version of it with better range. Depends on your needs. My Leaf has been incredible. I paid $5k for an older one off lease and it gets me round trip to work/school/running errands for essentially zero marginal cost. People are stuck in an ICE mindset where they can't imagine a car being useful with less than 400 miles range. But the reality is that you never end up using a full charge, and charging is available everywhere (in cities) now. I can guarantee that there will be a class of ultra cheap EV's that stick to the 100-150 mile range as it is all most urban dwellers need on a day-to-day basis. If the price/kWh of lithium ion batteries continues falling at it's current rate, we'll see sub $20k ~150 mile range EV's for sale within 5 years. >People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes, and all but the newest luxury apartments lack charging stations. Relying on public charging infrastructure is not realistic, and relying on charging at work is unwise -- it will limit your next job opportunity to companies that also have charging stations, unless you are willing to replace your car. Even relying on charging at an apartment is unwise, because it will limit where you can move to. Not really. I live in a tiny Bay Area apartment and street park my Leaf. Charging has never been a problem. My office has level 2, there's a level 2 across the street from me, and there's two level 3's on the way home if I need a quick top off. Granted we have better infrastructure than most, and I'll admit there's definitely some getting used to how it all works, but I'll never go back to an ICE.

thinkling 9y ago
This is all well and good if you're in a two-car household, but we only have one car and we do pretty regularly do longer road trips, e.g. to go skiing. Even with a 240mi Bolt those trips could be awkward.
- strange_quark 9y ago
  Then get a PHEV. I've had my Volt for almost a year now and although I don't drive a ton, I've managed to get about 80% of my driving done on pure electric. The other 20% is road trips where I still get ~40-45 mpg.

mrlyc 9y ago

> People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes Perhaps there could be combined parking meters and charging stations. You would pay a certain amount of money if you just wanted to park and you would pay more if you wanted to charge your car too.

r00fus 9y ago
That's an amazing idea. Also imagine solar covered parking which could be a good moneymaker (sell energy and/or sell preferred parking spots).
- KGIII 9y ago
  I wonder how viable covering parking lots would be in areas where you get a lot of snow. At some point, you will have to find a way to remove it - sometimes even a bunch of ice. But, it has a bonus of keeping the precipitation that would land on your vehicle. That might just be its best feature.
WorldMaker 9y ago
Those are slowly beginning to pop up in more places. It possibly the most common charger style you see popping up in garages and streets in major cities. Something I find interesting: There are cities investigating adding chargers that blend in to lamp posts (especially historic lamp posts where adding meters would be unwanted in a historic neighborhood).
stevenwoo 9y ago
These are in a lot of municipal parking lots for the cities/towns that fill the land between San Jose and San Francisco. At the coast haven't seen any in the smaller rural towns only 30 miles away.

WorldMaker 9y ago

> So, I guess electric car ownership is effectively another perk of home ownership. It's another chicken-and-egg bootstrapping problem, though. If everyone had electric cars, there would be more market demand for electrified street parking, and there would be more demand for electric parking spaces in apartment complexes. At some point it becomes less of a market differentiator (luxury apartments use it to stay competitive) and increasingly a market force (every apartment needs it to stay relevant). Given the pace that the car manufacturers seem to be moving, that transition likely needs to start happening sooner rather than later. (2023 is six years from now.)

DennisP 9y ago
Fortunately it's a chicken-and-egg problem where all the homeowners already have eggs.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

KGIII 9y ago

I think you will see good electrics coming from Japan. The e-class racing teams have been doing great work, as have their f-class. They are certainly capable of holding their own. They also have some good hybrids that will make their way to personal vehicles.

Slimbo 9y ago

In London street lamps are being converted into EV charge stations for kerbside charging: http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-street-lamps-electric-car-charging-points-ubitricity-tech-firm-hounslow-council-richmond-a7809126.html http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/london-street-lamps...