7 ms·

General Motors Is Going All Electric

45 points by Dimitris 9y ago

loceng 9y ago
Smart. Elon should feel very proud.
- KGIII 9y ago
  What I like most is that I bet they will make use of some of his patents, for free. Tesla's patent library is free for use, by any company. He has pretty much written his name into automotive history.
justboxing 9y ago
About Time. Just like Leica dropped the ball on moving on to Digital Cameras, General Motors was slow to get on the Electric Vehicles bandwagon. > "General Motors believes the future is all-electric," says Mark Reuss, the company’s head of product. "We are far along in our plan to lead the way to that future world." Glad to see that they are going all-in.
- pacerwpg 9y ago
  GM had one of the first EVs in the 90s, the EV1. They jumped in before the technology was there. They've also been working with gas-electric mixed technology with the Volt since 2010 and more recently the Bolt.
r00fus 9y ago
I recently bought an inexpensive electric (Ford Focus Electric 2017), and I can't imagine going back. No gas stations, no oil changes, no transmission failures, no engine breakdowns, no timing belt, no transaxles, overall less costs even energy wise. Also it's got amazing pickup and can beat guzzlers off the line (I've edged out Mustangs, but I haven't gone head to head with a Porsche). So I have to charge every day - great, same with my iPhone (which, amusingly, is increasingly more important than my car - I can always hire a Lyft/Uber with my phone). I think the electric revolution is like the SSD one - 10 years ago it was "unreliable" but today no one goes spinning rust unless they have absolute need to.
- toast0 9y ago
  I just got a 2014 C-max energi (plug in). The battery indicators are pretty unreliable, I would be scared of running out prematurely if I was driving an all electric, because when I turn it on after a charge, it says I can go 22 miles on battery only, but it usually runs out in about 15 miles, and if I have the opportunity to drive at highway speeds, it does even worse. I wouldn't be comfortable driving anywhere in an electric unless I had a safety factor of 2.5x the expected mileage, since running out of battery is going to be way less convenient than running out of gas.
  - r00fus 9y ago
    I bought (leased, actually) a car that can easily do 150% of my max daily range. It's designed to be a commute car. I also have it charging often at charge spots at work, shopping, and even when I drive to visit local customers. I noticed a recent 90m trip we took our minivan, but my electric could have done it - the hotel we stayed in had chargers. If you're staying with relatives, you can bring your own charge cable (110v is slow but ubiquitous). Range anxiety is a non issue once you own a car that has sufficient battery capacity/range assuming you have a regular commute. I've gotten it down to 5% battery - it was 5.5m over the listed range of 110m at the time (not being lead-foot at the time). I think the PHEV -> EV shift is a significant paradigm shift for a driver.
- jlappi 9y ago
  There are still maintenance/wear items you'll need to address. There are still mechanical components the make up a drivetrain.
  - 5ilv3r 9y ago
    Replacing wheel bearings, brakes, and tires? Easy for a garage mechanic, and cheap too.
- elorant 9y ago
  What about batteries wearing out year after year? How much would it cost to change all the batteries in your car?
leesalminen 9y ago
I test drove a Bolt EV last week. Neat car. The interior was lacking for me, though. I ended up with an Audi.
twblalock 9y ago
I'm impressed that the American car companies have embraced electric technology so quickly. I'm also disappointed that the Japanese companies are falling behind. The Prius was a very innovative car when it was first released 20 years ago (that's right, the first Prius was a 1997 model!), but it is falling behind. The Nissan Leaf is just not competitive anymore, and I see no sign of a newer version of it with better range. However, these new electric cars are mostly of interest to homeowners. People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes, and all but the newest luxury apartments lack charging stations. Relying on public charging infrastructure is not realistic, and relying on charging at work is unwise -- it will limit your next job opportunity to companies that also have charging stations, unless you are willing to replace your car. Even relying on charging at an apartment is unwise, because it will limit where you can move to. So, I guess electric car ownership is effectively another perk of home ownership.
- sien 9y ago
  The 2018 Nissan Leaf has a 400km range and has charge times like a Tesla. http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed/ http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed...
  - jansanchez 9y ago
    > Nissan claims the new Leaf’s 40 kWh battery will provide 150 miles of range under EPA testing and 400km (248.5 miles) under the Japanese JC08 cycle From: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-electric-official-range-features-specs https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-...
  - graycat 9y ago
    For the 400 km, is the A/C or heater on, or the headlights, the speed nice and slow, not much cargo, and heavy use by the driver of pedals? I still want a 20 gallon gas tank and a lot of filling stations.
- bovermyer 9y ago
  I don't know that this is true. To compare, would you expect every house to have a gas station built in? Granted, a full electric charge doesn't last as long as a full tank of gas, but that's going to be decreasingly relevant as battery technology improves.
5ilv3r 9y ago
It would seem Detroit no longer feels the need to emphasize the importance of traditional energy companies to our future. Very nice too see after so many years of them promising hydrogen will solve everything and make your wife and dog come back home.
- elihu 9y ago
  From the article: > The new all-electric models will be a mix of battery electric cars and fuel cell-powered vehicles. They don't specify whether the fuel cells will be hydrogen or something else, but it may be premature to say that Detroit has given up on hydrogen as a fuel.
unit91 9y ago
I don't see how this can work in anything but a commuter-centric car. Want to drive from LA to SF or from Austin to Tulsa? Too bad. Want to drive an electric, loaded pickup from Austin to Dallas? Also not going to happen. Unless they make some significant technological strides, nations larger than Norway are going to take a serious economic hit.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Have you seen Tesla's Superchargers [1]? Or a Model X hauling cross country? [1] https://www.tesla.com/supercharger https://www.tesla.com/supercharger [2] http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-hauling-freight-ca-highway/ http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-hauling-freight-ca-hi...
- r00fus 9y ago
  I plotted this out (PlugShare app) and with DC fast chargers or Superchargers it's totally doable (would hate to do it with just 6.6W L2s). And that's the great part. Things are improving, and the rate of improvement is quickening too. Though I don't own a Tesla, they're to be commended for bringing long-range EV travel to reality.
- dayaz36 9y ago
  You've heard of Tesla right?
- elihu 9y ago
  According to the article, GM is also investing in fuel cells. They also aren't converting to all electric right now, they're rolling out some new electric models and are planning to eventually stop building gas-burning cars. If that doesn't happen for another ten or twenty years, we can probably expect some significant improvements in battery capacity per unit of mass and cost in that time. According to Google maps, Austin to Dallas is 195 miles, LA to SF is 382 miles, and Austin to Tulsa is 454 miles. ~200 mile road trips are possible now with current technology. There aren't any electric pickups on the market as far as I know, but it should be possible (though expensive) with current technology for an electric truck to make the trip if it had a battery that's sized appropriately for that kind of use. ~400 mile road trips are a bit too far for a single battery charge at highway speeds without some kind of new technology or a vehicle that's optimized for range over other concerns, but I wouldn't want be driving that long without a break anyways. I expect if there's a market for that kind of vehicle, someone will build it eventually.
forapurpose 9y ago
I was driving by some town houses[0] in a dense city recently and wondered: How would electric car owners who live there charge their cars? They don't have a driveway or garage or any designated parking place; they find parking on the street in their neighborhood. Unless someone installs charging stations up and down the streets, where will the residents charge their future electric cars? I read about one city that discontinued a program where electric car owners could reserve a spot on the street and install a charging station. But that is inefficient use for a parking spot that may be empty most of the day. [0] By "town houses", I mean houses that share the walls on either side with their neighbors; they are lined up side by side. You see them often in dense urban areas. There is no place for a driveway and rarely is precious real estate used for a garage.
thinkling 9y ago
If fully electric cars don't quite work for your needs because of the range or the charge times, I recommend looking at the Chevy Volt. I think the Voltec drivetrain is a great design. It drives like an EV, even when the engine is active, but eliminates range anxiety. The integration of the electric motors and gas engine is really good. With my driving pattern, I end up driving on pre-charged electric 50% of the time and gas about 50% of the time. On gas, the car gets the advertised 42mpg.
- cwbrandsma 9y ago
  My problem is seats. Ideally I want a vehicle that sits 8 people (minimum is 7) -- and not cost a small fortune. So, for the time being electrics are out of the running for me. I'll check back in 10 years when most of my kids have moved out.
  - thinkling 9y ago
    Might be worth looking at the hybrid Chrysler Pacifica as a compromise. I thought the Voltec drivetrain would be great in a minivan, but apparently GM engineers say it won't work in heavier cars [0]. [0] https://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/gms-randd-head-says-voltec-powertrain-not-suitable-for-vehicles-b/ https://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/gms-randd-head-says-volt...
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    Isn't your eligible list of vehicles tiny - 7 seater? Forget not costing a small fortune, off the top of my head a Mercedes Sprinter van and Chevy Suburban are not cheap to buy or run.
    - thinkling 9y ago
      Every minivan is a 7-seater (2 + 2 + 3) and many bigger SUVs are, as well.
graycat 9y ago
> That product onslaught puts the company at the forefront of an increasingly large crowd of automakers proclaiming the age of electricity and promising to move away from gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles. Uh, call that for small, mostly urban, pregnant roller skate cars but not much for SUVs or light trucks and certainly not for the main uses of Diesel in long haul 18 wheel trucks, backhoes, earth moving equipment, boats, etc. "Vehicles" is way too strong, has the authors dreaming. Also, so far the recharging time is too long for nearly everyone. And for rural drivers, mostly "No way"; they still need gasoline, put in 20 gallons in a few minutes.
throwaway2016a 9y ago
I am very impressed that GM decided to do this. I realize that this is apples and oranges. Cars are all different and each model has to be certified in all he different countries. But my first thought (besides "Awesome!") when Elon musk announced his mars plans was that it's amazing he wants to do all this in less time than car makers are able / willing to ditch fossil fuels. Good to see GM on the right track.

45 points by Dimitris 9y ago

loceng 9y ago

Smart. Elon should feel very proud.

KGIII 9y ago
What I like most is that I bet they will make use of some of his patents, for free. Tesla's patent library is free for use, by any company. He has pretty much written his name into automotive history.

justboxing 9y ago

About Time. Just like Leica dropped the ball on moving on to Digital Cameras, General Motors was slow to get on the Electric Vehicles bandwagon. > "General Motors believes the future is all-electric," says Mark Reuss, the company’s head of product. "We are far along in our plan to lead the way to that future world." Glad to see that they are going all-in.

pacerwpg 9y ago
GM had one of the first EVs in the 90s, the EV1. They jumped in before the technology was there. They've also been working with gas-electric mixed technology with the Volt since 2010 and more recently the Bolt.

r00fus 9y ago

I recently bought an inexpensive electric (Ford Focus Electric 2017), and I can't imagine going back. No gas stations, no oil changes, no transmission failures, no engine breakdowns, no timing belt, no transaxles, overall less costs even energy wise. Also it's got amazing pickup and can beat guzzlers off the line (I've edged out Mustangs, but I haven't gone head to head with a Porsche). So I have to charge every day - great, same with my iPhone (which, amusingly, is increasingly more important than my car - I can always hire a Lyft/Uber with my phone). I think the electric revolution is like the SSD one - 10 years ago it was "unreliable" but today no one goes spinning rust unless they have absolute need to.

toast0 9y ago
I just got a 2014 C-max energi (plug in). The battery indicators are pretty unreliable, I would be scared of running out prematurely if I was driving an all electric, because when I turn it on after a charge, it says I can go 22 miles on battery only, but it usually runs out in about 15 miles, and if I have the opportunity to drive at highway speeds, it does even worse. I wouldn't be comfortable driving anywhere in an electric unless I had a safety factor of 2.5x the expected mileage, since running out of battery is going to be way less convenient than running out of gas.
- r00fus 9y ago
  I bought (leased, actually) a car that can easily do 150% of my max daily range. It's designed to be a commute car. I also have it charging often at charge spots at work, shopping, and even when I drive to visit local customers. I noticed a recent 90m trip we took our minivan, but my electric could have done it - the hotel we stayed in had chargers. If you're staying with relatives, you can bring your own charge cable (110v is slow but ubiquitous). Range anxiety is a non issue once you own a car that has sufficient battery capacity/range assuming you have a regular commute. I've gotten it down to 5% battery - it was 5.5m over the listed range of 110m at the time (not being lead-foot at the time). I think the PHEV -> EV shift is a significant paradigm shift for a driver.
jlappi 9y ago
There are still maintenance/wear items you'll need to address. There are still mechanical components the make up a drivetrain.
- 5ilv3r 9y ago
  Replacing wheel bearings, brakes, and tires? Easy for a garage mechanic, and cheap too.
elorant 9y ago
What about batteries wearing out year after year? How much would it cost to change all the batteries in your car?

leesalminen 9y ago

I test drove a Bolt EV last week. Neat car. The interior was lacking for me, though. I ended up with an Audi.

twblalock 9y ago

I'm impressed that the American car companies have embraced electric technology so quickly. I'm also disappointed that the Japanese companies are falling behind. The Prius was a very innovative car when it was first released 20 years ago (that's right, the first Prius was a 1997 model!), but it is falling behind. The Nissan Leaf is just not competitive anymore, and I see no sign of a newer version of it with better range. However, these new electric cars are mostly of interest to homeowners. People who park on the street have no realistic way to charge their cars at their homes, and all but the newest luxury apartments lack charging stations. Relying on public charging infrastructure is not realistic, and relying on charging at work is unwise -- it will limit your next job opportunity to companies that also have charging stations, unless you are willing to replace your car. Even relying on charging at an apartment is unwise, because it will limit where you can move to. So, I guess electric car ownership is effectively another perk of home ownership.

sien 9y ago
The 2018 Nissan Leaf has a 400km range and has charge times like a Tesla. http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed/ http://www.caradvice.com.au/581046/2018-nissan-leaf-revealed...
- jansanchez 9y ago
  > Nissan claims the new Leaf’s 40 kWh battery will provide 150 miles of range under EPA testing and 400km (248.5 miles) under the Japanese JC08 cycle From: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-electric-official-range-features-specs https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/5/16254460/nissan-leaf-2018-...
- graycat 9y ago
  For the 400 km, is the A/C or heater on, or the headlights, the speed nice and slow, not much cargo, and heavy use by the driver of pedals? I still want a 20 gallon gas tank and a lot of filling stations.
bovermyer 9y ago
I don't know that this is true. To compare, would you expect every house to have a gas station built in? Granted, a full electric charge doesn't last as long as a full tank of gas, but that's going to be decreasingly relevant as battery technology improves.

5ilv3r 9y ago

It would seem Detroit no longer feels the need to emphasize the importance of traditional energy companies to our future. Very nice too see after so many years of them promising hydrogen will solve everything and make your wife and dog come back home.

elihu 9y ago
From the article: > The new all-electric models will be a mix of battery electric cars and fuel cell-powered vehicles. They don't specify whether the fuel cells will be hydrogen or something else, but it may be premature to say that Detroit has given up on hydrogen as a fuel.

unit91 9y ago

I don't see how this can work in anything but a commuter-centric car. Want to drive from LA to SF or from Austin to Tulsa? Too bad. Want to drive an electric, loaded pickup from Austin to Dallas? Also not going to happen. Unless they make some significant technological strides, nations larger than Norway are going to take a serious economic hit.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
Have you seen Tesla's Superchargers [1]? Or a Model X hauling cross country? [1] https://www.tesla.com/supercharger https://www.tesla.com/supercharger [2] http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-hauling-freight-ca-highway/ http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-hauling-freight-ca-hi...
r00fus 9y ago
I plotted this out (PlugShare app) and with DC fast chargers or Superchargers it's totally doable (would hate to do it with just 6.6W L2s). And that's the great part. Things are improving, and the rate of improvement is quickening too. Though I don't own a Tesla, they're to be commended for bringing long-range EV travel to reality.
dayaz36 9y ago
You've heard of Tesla right?
elihu 9y ago
According to the article, GM is also investing in fuel cells. They also aren't converting to all electric right now, they're rolling out some new electric models and are planning to eventually stop building gas-burning cars. If that doesn't happen for another ten or twenty years, we can probably expect some significant improvements in battery capacity per unit of mass and cost in that time. According to Google maps, Austin to Dallas is 195 miles, LA to SF is 382 miles, and Austin to Tulsa is 454 miles. ~200 mile road trips are possible now with current technology. There aren't any electric pickups on the market as far as I know, but it should be possible (though expensive) with current technology for an electric truck to make the trip if it had a battery that's sized appropriately for that kind of use. ~400 mile road trips are a bit too far for a single battery charge at highway speeds without some kind of new technology or a vehicle that's optimized for range over other concerns, but I wouldn't want be driving that long without a break anyways. I expect if there's a market for that kind of vehicle, someone will build it eventually.

forapurpose 9y ago

I was driving by some town houses[0] in a dense city recently and wondered: How would electric car owners who live there charge their cars? They don't have a driveway or garage or any designated parking place; they find parking on the street in their neighborhood. Unless someone installs charging stations up and down the streets, where will the residents charge their future electric cars? I read about one city that discontinued a program where electric car owners could reserve a spot on the street and install a charging station. But that is inefficient use for a parking spot that may be empty most of the day. [0] By "town houses", I mean houses that share the walls on either side with their neighbors; they are lined up side by side. You see them often in dense urban areas. There is no place for a driveway and rarely is precious real estate used for a garage.

thinkling 9y ago

If fully electric cars don't quite work for your needs because of the range or the charge times, I recommend looking at the Chevy Volt. I think the Voltec drivetrain is a great design. It drives like an EV, even when the engine is active, but eliminates range anxiety. The integration of the electric motors and gas engine is really good. With my driving pattern, I end up driving on pre-charged electric 50% of the time and gas about 50% of the time. On gas, the car gets the advertised 42mpg.

cwbrandsma 9y ago
My problem is seats. Ideally I want a vehicle that sits 8 people (minimum is 7) -- and not cost a small fortune. So, for the time being electrics are out of the running for me. I'll check back in 10 years when most of my kids have moved out.
- thinkling 9y ago
  Might be worth looking at the hybrid Chrysler Pacifica as a compromise. I thought the Voltec drivetrain would be great in a minivan, but apparently GM engineers say it won't work in heavier cars [0]. [0] https://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/gms-randd-head-says-voltec-powertrain-not-suitable-for-vehicles-b/ https://www.autoblog.com/2010/04/22/gms-randd-head-says-volt...
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Isn't your eligible list of vehicles tiny - 7 seater? Forget not costing a small fortune, off the top of my head a Mercedes Sprinter van and Chevy Suburban are not cheap to buy or run.
  - thinkling 9y ago
    Every minivan is a 7-seater (2 + 2 + 3) and many bigger SUVs are, as well.

graycat 9y ago

> That product onslaught puts the company at the forefront of an increasingly large crowd of automakers proclaiming the age of electricity and promising to move away from gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles. Uh, call that for small, mostly urban, pregnant roller skate cars but not much for SUVs or light trucks and certainly not for the main uses of Diesel in long haul 18 wheel trucks, backhoes, earth moving equipment, boats, etc. "Vehicles" is way too strong, has the authors dreaming. Also, so far the recharging time is too long for nearly everyone. And for rural drivers, mostly "No way"; they still need gasoline, put in 20 gallons in a few minutes.

throwaway2016a 9y ago

I am very impressed that GM decided to do this. I realize that this is apples and oranges. Cars are all different and each model has to be certified in all he different countries. But my first thought (besides "Awesome!") when Elon musk announced his mars plans was that it's amazing he wants to do all this in less time than car makers are able / willing to ditch fossil fuels. Good to see GM on the right track.