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There are several angles to analyze this... 1) Based on previous Apple acquisitions[1], acquiring a multibillion dollar conglomerate like Sony really hasn't be

by jasode 9y ago

There are several angles to analyze this... 1) Based on previous Apple acquisitions[1], acquiring a multibillion dollar conglomerate like Sony really hasn't been part of Apple's playbook. Things could change of course, (Tim Cook philosophy different from Steve Jobs, etc). If Apple somehow did buy Sony, they'd probably end up doing a carve outs for the pieces they wanted (like Google did with Motorola.) >Cornering the imaging sensor supply. The image sensor is a critical component of the iPhone. 2) Buying Sony to get the image sensor and exclude everyone else also seems very un-Apple like. Apple seems to enjoy being a supply-chain orchestrator and keeping hardware manufacturers at "arms length" via contracts instead of owning complicated fabrication facilities. E.g. Apple didn't seriously entertain buying Corning to "own the Gorilla Glass facility"; if other smartphones got Gorilla glass, no big deal. What's the convincing business case for Apple to prefer acquiring Sony instead of just negotiating a multibillion dollar supply contract? >Acquiring Sony would give Apple a huge competitive advantage: access to the most advanced chips of the industry, ahead of its smartphone competitors. Given the camera's importance to the iPhone, this is a strong competitive argument against Samsung’s Galaxy or Google’s Pixel. 3) The smartphone camera's quality being perceived as #1 may not even be strategically important to Apple. In the last ten years from 2007 until now, was Apple iPhone ever #1 in camera quality? It always seemed like Samsung/Lumia/Google had the better cameras and it never seemed to bother Apple. Maybe the journalist is overemphasizing the camera's importance? (Unless future cameras' sensor qualities are more integral to upcoming "virtual reality" apps and Sony has secret sauce for that scenario that nobody else has.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Apple https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitio...

pacaro 9y ago
The quality issue is really interesting. I used to have the Lumia with the 40MP camera. The image quality was, in general, significantly better, and for low light photography (for example a baby sleeping in a room with the drapes closed) exceptionally better. But. And there's always a but. Apple seems to have payed way more attention to the user experience of taking a picture, so while I could adjust everything on the Lumia, and potentially get a better picture, just taking a snap was so unbelievably slow, the lag between clicking and the image being taken was slow, and the time between taking pictures was slow, so my wife with an equivalent generation iPhone could take 10-20 images in the time it took me to take one. Quality has to be understood in the context of the whole experience, not just the final image. I still keep the Lumia charged, years later, because there are times when it makes a decent digital camera... YMMV
- emn13 9y ago
  Being able to take pictures quickly does depend to a considerable extent on the quality of the sensor; getting all that data off of it isn't trivial; and analyzing it to pick a focus and other settings is similarly hard to do quickly. And as it so happens, that's perhaps one area where sony is most ahead of the competition. Sure, their sensors have some slightly better technical characteristics in a lab (e.g. noise, dynamic range), but I kind of doubt they're enough to make a really noticeable difference compared to the competition. But they are really fast; e.g. show-off stuff like their relatively new RX10 gen 4 (see https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx10iv https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx10... ) have some fairly interesting features precisely because they're so fast. 24fps full phase detection autofocus? And it may well be able to do some image analysis to even detect, follow and focus on moving eyes at that speed? For frame of reference, canon's top end pro stuff (1DXm2) has around the same resolution, and just 16fps, and nikon's D5 "just" 14fps (not that they're really competitors, but just to give you an idea of what's technically high-end). Speed matters, and that's not really primarily a UI issue; it's to a large extent a technical challenge too. Shutter lag isn't new, and it's been an important stat for a loooong time. Even without any further information whatsoever, I'd be willing to bet that the lumia's shutter lag wasn't just a matter of poor UI or camera app software; but also one of sensor and other imaging limitations. TL;DR: if your old iphone had used your old lumia's imaging hardware, it probably would have been slow too.
oceanswave 9y ago
1) I think there's the possibility of a symbiotic relationship between the results of a Sony acquisition and Apple in a great number of areas, as the original author points out, however culturally it would be difficult and it would break away from apple's traditional mantra... 2) A quick google search finds that they own two production facilities (one in Mesa, AZ, one in San Jose) though you're right that using either of these facilities or ones acquired through Sony would be a departure from what we generally know. 3) Very subjective - even among DSLR manufacturers, depending on who you ask, who is #1 in cameras varies greatly. Taken at face value, DxO Mark recently declared[1] that the iPhone 8 Plus had the best smartphone camera available. It's definitely one of Apple's talking points during product announcements, but non-smartphone camera market seems to have devolved into a niche these days[2]. Aside from IP I'm not sure there's value add to the smartphone market that Apple can obtain from Sony and moving into the DSLR space, while potentially exciting from a photography perspective, it seems to be a declining market. Then again, maybe DSLR photographers are the ones who have moved away from flickr. [1] https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-8-plus-reviewed-the-best-smartphone-camera-ever-tested/ https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-8-plus-reviewed-the-bes... [2] https://www.flickr.com/cameras https://www.flickr.com/cameras
potatolicious 9y ago
I also don't buy the image sensor argument - Sony isn't hoarding the best sensor designs for itself - they actively develop and market image sensors of all varieties and use cases to OEMs. Apple doesn't need to buy Sony to get access to Sony's latest and greatest in sensor tech. > "In the last ten years from 2007 until now, was Apple iPhone ever #1 in camera quality?" I'd strongly argue yes, but I think it helps prove your point. Apple's cameras have been top-in-class for a lot of reasons that have little to do with image sensor tech. Lots of people prefer Apple's camera over other phones because of non-sensor advantages: shorter camera launch time, less lag between shutter press and actual image capture, faster focusing, better/more pleasing flash (that doesn't make you look like a zombie), post-processing, and now features like editing the lighting conditions after the fact. I think it's becoming clear that, while image sensor tech will continue to improve, big gains in camera functionality and quality are increasingly driven by software advancements.
- petepete 9y ago
  Sony's best image sensors are limited to Sony devices though. See the α7rII and the α9. They are making huge strides in the mirrorless camera game at the moment, they've started what could be the drift away from DSLRs for professionals.
basch 9y ago
>Apple didn't seriously entertain buying Corning to "own the Gorilla Glass facility" Cuz they already bought a Sapphire glass factory in Arizona https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apple-sapphire-screen-supplier-gt-advanced-technologies-files-bankruptcy/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apple-sapphire-screen-s...
- jasode 9y ago
  Doesn't seem like Apple actually wanted to buy a glass factory. They just got "stuck" with it because GT declared bankruptcy. Excerpt: >, through an auction of between 1,400 to 2,000 of GT’s sapphire-making furnaces in November. Proceeds are to be split between Apple and GT, according to court papers, and any unsold equipment (with the exception of 600 furnaces that GT Advanced will retain) will be given to Apple for scrap.[...] Apple has announced plans to repurpose the facility as a data center.
  - basch 9y ago
    what happened was, apple went to a furnace company and said we want a lot of furnaces. then later they said we also want you to run the furnaces and make glass. the company couldnt deliver because that wasnt what they did and it was outside the scale of anything they did before. the company declared bankruptcy because of the apple investment. apple basically created a glass factory out of thin air in somebody elses name, and it failed to produce.

by jasode 9y ago

pacaro 9y ago

The quality issue is really interesting. I used to have the Lumia with the 40MP camera. The image quality was, in general, significantly better, and for low light photography (for example a baby sleeping in a room with the drapes closed) exceptionally better. But. And there's always a but. Apple seems to have payed way more attention to the user experience of taking a picture, so while I could adjust everything on the Lumia, and potentially get a better picture, just taking a snap was so unbelievably slow, the lag between clicking and the image being taken was slow, and the time between taking pictures was slow, so my wife with an equivalent generation iPhone could take 10-20 images in the time it took me to take one. Quality has to be understood in the context of the whole experience, not just the final image. I still keep the Lumia charged, years later, because there are times when it makes a decent digital camera... YMMV

emn13 9y ago
Being able to take pictures quickly does depend to a considerable extent on the quality of the sensor; getting all that data off of it isn't trivial; and analyzing it to pick a focus and other settings is similarly hard to do quickly. And as it so happens, that's perhaps one area where sony is most ahead of the competition. Sure, their sensors have some slightly better technical characteristics in a lab (e.g. noise, dynamic range), but I kind of doubt they're enough to make a really noticeable difference compared to the competition. But they are really fast; e.g. show-off stuff like their relatively new RX10 gen 4 (see https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx10iv https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dscrx10... ) have some fairly interesting features precisely because they're so fast. 24fps full phase detection autofocus? And it may well be able to do some image analysis to even detect, follow and focus on moving eyes at that speed? For frame of reference, canon's top end pro stuff (1DXm2) has around the same resolution, and just 16fps, and nikon's D5 "just" 14fps (not that they're really competitors, but just to give you an idea of what's technically high-end). Speed matters, and that's not really primarily a UI issue; it's to a large extent a technical challenge too. Shutter lag isn't new, and it's been an important stat for a loooong time. Even without any further information whatsoever, I'd be willing to bet that the lumia's shutter lag wasn't just a matter of poor UI or camera app software; but also one of sensor and other imaging limitations. TL;DR: if your old iphone had used your old lumia's imaging hardware, it probably would have been slow too.

oceanswave 9y ago

1) I think there's the possibility of a symbiotic relationship between the results of a Sony acquisition and Apple in a great number of areas, as the original author points out, however culturally it would be difficult and it would break away from apple's traditional mantra... 2) A quick google search finds that they own two production facilities (one in Mesa, AZ, one in San Jose) though you're right that using either of these facilities or ones acquired through Sony would be a departure from what we generally know. 3) Very subjective - even among DSLR manufacturers, depending on who you ask, who is #1 in cameras varies greatly. Taken at face value, DxO Mark recently declared[1] that the iPhone 8 Plus had the best smartphone camera available. It's definitely one of Apple's talking points during product announcements, but non-smartphone camera market seems to have devolved into a niche these days[2]. Aside from IP I'm not sure there's value add to the smartphone market that Apple can obtain from Sony and moving into the DSLR space, while potentially exciting from a photography perspective, it seems to be a declining market. Then again, maybe DSLR photographers are the ones who have moved away from flickr. [1] https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-8-plus-reviewed-the-best-smartphone-camera-ever-tested/ https://www.dxomark.com/apple-iphone-8-plus-reviewed-the-bes... [2] https://www.flickr.com/cameras https://www.flickr.com/cameras

potatolicious 9y ago

I also don't buy the image sensor argument - Sony isn't hoarding the best sensor designs for itself - they actively develop and market image sensors of all varieties and use cases to OEMs. Apple doesn't need to buy Sony to get access to Sony's latest and greatest in sensor tech. > "In the last ten years from 2007 until now, was Apple iPhone ever #1 in camera quality?" I'd strongly argue yes, but I think it helps prove your point. Apple's cameras have been top-in-class for a lot of reasons that have little to do with image sensor tech. Lots of people prefer Apple's camera over other phones because of non-sensor advantages: shorter camera launch time, less lag between shutter press and actual image capture, faster focusing, better/more pleasing flash (that doesn't make you look like a zombie), post-processing, and now features like editing the lighting conditions after the fact. I think it's becoming clear that, while image sensor tech will continue to improve, big gains in camera functionality and quality are increasingly driven by software advancements.

petepete 9y ago
Sony's best image sensors are limited to Sony devices though. See the α7rII and the α9. They are making huge strides in the mirrorless camera game at the moment, they've started what could be the drift away from DSLRs for professionals.

basch 9y ago

>Apple didn't seriously entertain buying Corning to "own the Gorilla Glass facility" Cuz they already bought a Sapphire glass factory in Arizona https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apple-sapphire-screen-supplier-gt-advanced-technologies-files-bankruptcy/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/apple-sapphire-screen-s...

jasode 9y ago
Doesn't seem like Apple actually wanted to buy a glass factory. They just got "stuck" with it because GT declared bankruptcy. Excerpt: >, through an auction of between 1,400 to 2,000 of GT’s sapphire-making furnaces in November. Proceeds are to be split between Apple and GT, according to court papers, and any unsold equipment (with the exception of 600 furnaces that GT Advanced will retain) will be given to Apple for scrap.[...] Apple has announced plans to repurpose the facility as a data center.
- basch 9y ago
  what happened was, apple went to a furnace company and said we want a lot of furnaces. then later they said we also want you to run the furnaces and make glass. the company couldnt deliver because that wasnt what they did and it was outside the scale of anything they did before. the company declared bankruptcy because of the apple investment. apple basically created a glass factory out of thin air in somebody elses name, and it failed to produce.