5 ms·

Only if the TOS isn't unethical, immoral or lying.

by jpr 16y ago

TGJ 16y ago
If you knowingly agree to a TOS it does not matter whether it's unethical or not. When you sign you agree to the ethics contained. You are supposed to be reading the TOS to see whether you agree or not and once you sign you are being unethical if you break the TOS in any other way not specifically allowed in the TOS.
- ars 16y ago
  You got downmodded because not everyone holds that a TOS is legally binding just because it exists. It's not the same as signing a contact. But even a contract can be invalidated if a court holds it's unconscionable.
  - TGJ 16y ago
    There are two different ideas going on here. There is the legal and the ethical. It doesn't matter whether an agreement is legal or not, in the realm of ethics if you sign willingly you agree. Would you care to explain how you can defend breaking a TOS when you have a choice on whether to sign it or not?
    - ars 16y ago
      I've never heard of anyone, ever, signing a TOS. The problem with a TOS is that it's unilateral - I get no chance to negotiate it. In my mind that makes it invalid. Just because the website wants it to be valid doesn't mean it actually is. But the bigger problem is that I did not agree to it. The website tries to impose it on me.
      - akeefer 16y ago
        I don't think your argument holds up. Any service is offered under some terms; it's irrational and unreasonable to assume that when you use someone's website or service that there are no terms whatsoever attached to that service. So where do those terms come from? Rationally, one might expect the website to spell out what they expect from you and under what conditions their services are provided. If you don't like those terms, don't use the service. It seems like you're arguing that you should get to determine under what terms the services are offered, or perhaps alternatively that services offered should never have any terms attached whatsoever; both of those positions seem pretty indefensible to me. Just because you don't get a chance to negotiate terms doesn't make them invalid. It's a take-it-or-leave it offer, and you always have the right to leave it. When a restaurant gives you a bill, do you pay less than the amount just because you didn't get to negotiate the price? Do you walk into a restaurant shirtless that explicitly asks you not to do that? Of course not: your ordering the item indicated your willingness to pay the associated charge, and likewise if you don't want to abide by their rules around appropriate dress, you just don't go in. You don't get to make up your own rules and then apply them to someone else's services. It's a different question if the TOS are deliberately obscured such that you don't actually know what you're agreeing to, but the argument that just because you can't negotiate the TOS they're somehow invalid and you're thus justified in still using the service in violation of them is absurd.
        ars 16y ago
        If I put up a sign on the freeway saying: "The sky is blue. By reading this message you agree to ....". Do you think that's a valid TOS? How is a website any different? > So where do those terms come from? State law. That's all. The website can not dictate any terms whatsoever. To your specific points: A restaurant is private property - they can ask me to leave if I don't wear a shirt, but they can NOT compel me to actually wear the shirt. They can't fine me for going there without a shirt, they can't do anything at all, except ask me to leave. If I buy food from a restaurant, that's a purchase and not a contact, and it uses the various state laws that govern that. But the restaurant can NOT add extra conditions. If a restaurant puts up a sign that said "by buying food here you agree to ...." - that sign is meaningless, and has no validity. A purchase order requires the signature of the buyer. Merely stating a term and saying "by doing ...." is meaningless. Those terms you find on the back of a receipt sometimes? Meaningless. They can say what the store will do, and under what conditions, but they can do nothing whatsoever to the purchaser that state law does not provide.
        akeefer 16y ago
        A website is effectively private property. Suppose my house had a nice lawn, and I said to the neighborhood kids, "You're welcome to play on my lawn, just clean up after yourselves and don't hurt the flowers." Is that reasonable? How about if, instead of communicating that to them, I instead put up a sign to that effect? Is it cool if the kids play on my lawn and mess up my flower bed because they don't like those terms and couldn't negotiate them? Of course not: I've laid out the rules for their usage of my private property, and if they don't like the rules they can do something else with their time. I'm not saying a website should be able to sue you or file criminal complaints if you violate a TOS; I'm just saying that they do have the right to expect you to abide by them if you choose to use the site. They should be able to behave exactly as a restaurant does: kick you out if you violate them, and file criminal complaints only if you actually do something criminal (cause damage, steal stuff, abuse staff, etc.). Whether or not a TOS is criminally enforceable is a long ways away from your argument, which I interpreted as essentially saying that breaking/ignoring a TOS isn't any sort of ethical violation because it's not a countersigned negotiated contract.

Only if the TOS isn't unethical, immoral or lying.

by jpr 16y ago

Only if the TOS isn't unethical, immoral or lying.

TGJ 16y ago

If you knowingly agree to a TOS it does not matter whether it's unethical or not. When you sign you agree to the ethics contained. You are supposed to be reading the TOS to see whether you agree or not and once you sign you are being unethical if you break the TOS in any other way not specifically allowed in the TOS.

ars 16y ago
You got downmodded because not everyone holds that a TOS is legally binding just because it exists. It's not the same as signing a contact. But even a contract can be invalidated if a court holds it's unconscionable.
- TGJ 16y ago
  There are two different ideas going on here. There is the legal and the ethical. It doesn't matter whether an agreement is legal or not, in the realm of ethics if you sign willingly you agree. Would you care to explain how you can defend breaking a TOS when you have a choice on whether to sign it or not?
  - ars 16y ago
    I've never heard of anyone, ever, signing a TOS. The problem with a TOS is that it's unilateral - I get no chance to negotiate it. In my mind that makes it invalid. Just because the website wants it to be valid doesn't mean it actually is. But the bigger problem is that I did not agree to it. The website tries to impose it on me.
    - akeefer 16y ago
      I don't think your argument holds up. Any service is offered under some terms; it's irrational and unreasonable to assume that when you use someone's website or service that there are no terms whatsoever attached to that service. So where do those terms come from? Rationally, one might expect the website to spell out what they expect from you and under what conditions their services are provided. If you don't like those terms, don't use the service. It seems like you're arguing that you should get to determine under what terms the services are offered, or perhaps alternatively that services offered should never have any terms attached whatsoever; both of those positions seem pretty indefensible to me. Just because you don't get a chance to negotiate terms doesn't make them invalid. It's a take-it-or-leave it offer, and you always have the right to leave it. When a restaurant gives you a bill, do you pay less than the amount just because you didn't get to negotiate the price? Do you walk into a restaurant shirtless that explicitly asks you not to do that? Of course not: your ordering the item indicated your willingness to pay the associated charge, and likewise if you don't want to abide by their rules around appropriate dress, you just don't go in. You don't get to make up your own rules and then apply them to someone else's services. It's a different question if the TOS are deliberately obscured such that you don't actually know what you're agreeing to, but the argument that just because you can't negotiate the TOS they're somehow invalid and you're thus justified in still using the service in violation of them is absurd.
      - ars 16y ago
        If I put up a sign on the freeway saying: "The sky is blue. By reading this message you agree to ....". Do you think that's a valid TOS? How is a website any different? > So where do those terms come from? State law. That's all. The website can not dictate any terms whatsoever. To your specific points: A restaurant is private property - they can ask me to leave if I don't wear a shirt, but they can NOT compel me to actually wear the shirt. They can't fine me for going there without a shirt, they can't do anything at all, except ask me to leave. If I buy food from a restaurant, that's a purchase and not a contact, and it uses the various state laws that govern that. But the restaurant can NOT add extra conditions. If a restaurant puts up a sign that said "by buying food here you agree to ...." - that sign is meaningless, and has no validity. A purchase order requires the signature of the buyer. Merely stating a term and saying "by doing ...." is meaningless. Those terms you find on the back of a receipt sometimes? Meaningless. They can say what the store will do, and under what conditions, but they can do nothing whatsoever to the purchaser that state law does not provide.
        akeefer 16y ago
        A website is effectively private property. Suppose my house had a nice lawn, and I said to the neighborhood kids, "You're welcome to play on my lawn, just clean up after yourselves and don't hurt the flowers." Is that reasonable? How about if, instead of communicating that to them, I instead put up a sign to that effect? Is it cool if the kids play on my lawn and mess up my flower bed because they don't like those terms and couldn't negotiate them? Of course not: I've laid out the rules for their usage of my private property, and if they don't like the rules they can do something else with their time. I'm not saying a website should be able to sue you or file criminal complaints if you violate a TOS; I'm just saying that they do have the right to expect you to abide by them if you choose to use the site. They should be able to behave exactly as a restaurant does: kick you out if you violate them, and file criminal complaints only if you actually do something criminal (cause damage, steal stuff, abuse staff, etc.). Whether or not a TOS is criminally enforceable is a long ways away from your argument, which I interpreted as essentially saying that breaking/ignoring a TOS isn't any sort of ethical violation because it's not a countersigned negotiated contract.