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What percentage were created by H1Bs? I think you're conflating "immigrant" with "H1B visa holder". The two are not the same. Many of us who are critical of

What percentage were created by H1Bs? I think you're conflating "immigrant" with "H1B visa holder". The two are not the same. Many of us who are critical of H1B and similar visa programs are very much in support of immigration in general.

anindha 9y ago
Elon Musk was on a H1B when he started his first company.
jogjayr 9y ago
> What percentage were created by H1Bs? Well H-1Bs are generally prohibited from doing any paid work outside their current employer. So it would be a miracle if that number was non-zero. But it's still not. Zenefits co-founder Laks Srini had to be hired as a database administrator on an H-1B so that he could leave his previous employer [1]. It seems unfair to say people on visa programs don't become entrepreneurs when, in most cases, they legally aren't allowed to. 1. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing/silicon-valleys-h-1b-immigration-position-has-some-holes.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing...
- CJefferson 9y ago
  People complaining about H1B visa aren't (generally) complaining about the people on the visas themselves, they are complaining about the system of H1B visas itself.
austenallred 9y ago
I don't love the way H1Bs are structured either, but the notion that "Americans created it we should keep it" is silly. Of course, H1Bs can't start companies, so that's not a very good way to look at things - if you don't legally allow category x to do y how many xs are going to do y? A better question is how many could. But let's just talk about employees. I know I've worked at companies in the past in which the backbone of the work (not all of it, but an important part) was done by H1Bs, and we wouldn't have been able to complete that work and be solvent without the (brilliant) folks that had come over on H1Bs doing it. Those, say, 25 H1B jobs created jobs for hundreds of other folks. So I'm just wary of thinking that everything is a zero sum game or that immigration is "taking jobs" of "Americans."
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  And you wonder why companies can't be assed to re-train the workforce.
  - austenallred 9y ago
    Because training is expensive and hard and not what companies have traditionally done. I run a school, and we have had employers pay for training of dozens of employees. It happens quite frequently.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - hiram112 9y ago
      US companies used to always train their employees. It was the cost of doing business. The reason they do not do so now is because employees, for obvious reasons, have no loyalty to companies, and tend to jump ship after being trained. But again, this is because US companies changed from a lifetime model of employment to layoffs and offshoring for quarterly stock bumps. Force companies to use domestic labor, create a culture where employees aren't constantly worried they'll be canned the next time sales are low, and I bet you'll get good employees who would be willing to learn and stay for the long-term.
      - austenallred 9y ago
        Worth it? I doubt it.
  - AaronFriel 9y ago
    It's a supply chain issue. Software engineer demand might spike unexpectedly, and for startups, that might mean growing from a handful of employees to a hundred in a short period of time. Can that startup afford to relocate or remotely train a couple hundred out of work Americans for say, a year, pick the top half of those, and offer them packages? Maybe? Would a year's training be enough? I don't know, but I doubt it's cost effective for spiky demand in labor. This sort of supply issue should best be solved by the government, which has a vested interest in the employment of its taxpayers, or an NGO or some other organization. Not the companies in question.
furioussloth 9y ago
There might be a reason for many of those not being H1B holders. If you are H1B holder your ability to stay in country is tightly bond to your employer. You are completely dependent on your employment to stay legally in US and hardly have any wiggle room where you can quit your job and try entrepreneurship for a while if nothing works out go back to applying for another job. The visa policies should be in place for both of the cases where deserving people from other countries get funding and deserving americans get jobs at fair compensations.
nnd 9y ago
You can start a company on H1B as a minority shareholder, it's technically feasible.
- doingmyting 9y ago
  Technically yes, but starting a company that you can't work for in any capacity seems even silly to think about.
ecesena 9y ago
I don't think it's straightforward to create a company with a H1B, because of a chicken and egg problem. Typically you create it with an E2, which let you issue E2 visas for 3-4 other people. Then either you die, sell, or start issuing J1, later converted in H1B. H1B is generally too risky, being bound to a lottery, and that's the last thing you want at an early stage startup.
kamaal 9y ago
>>What percentage were created by H1Bs? Start ups are largely built on sweat equity. The kind of monthly salary most H1Bs generally work on. That comes with a risk. Most immigrants take it anyway because they start from 0 and you can only grow from there. If enough people do this enough number of times, eventually the system will always product a Google or Microsoft. So ultimately its about who is ready to work for cheap.

anindha 9y ago

Elon Musk was on a H1B when he started his first company.

jogjayr 9y ago

> What percentage were created by H1Bs? Well H-1Bs are generally prohibited from doing any paid work outside their current employer. So it would be a miracle if that number was non-zero. But it's still not. Zenefits co-founder Laks Srini had to be hired as a database administrator on an H-1B so that he could leave his previous employer [1]. It seems unfair to say people on visa programs don't become entrepreneurs when, in most cases, they legally aren't allowed to. 1. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing/silicon-valleys-h-1b-immigration-position-has-some-holes.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing...

CJefferson 9y ago
People complaining about H1B visa aren't (generally) complaining about the people on the visas themselves, they are complaining about the system of H1B visas itself.

austenallred 9y ago

I don't love the way H1Bs are structured either, but the notion that "Americans created it we should keep it" is silly. Of course, H1Bs can't start companies, so that's not a very good way to look at things - if you don't legally allow category x to do y how many xs are going to do y? A better question is how many could. But let's just talk about employees. I know I've worked at companies in the past in which the backbone of the work (not all of it, but an important part) was done by H1Bs, and we wouldn't have been able to complete that work and be solvent without the (brilliant) folks that had come over on H1Bs doing it. Those, say, 25 H1B jobs created jobs for hundreds of other folks. So I'm just wary of thinking that everything is a zero sum game or that immigration is "taking jobs" of "Americans."

ForRealsies 9y ago
And you wonder why companies can't be assed to re-train the workforce.
- austenallred 9y ago
  Because training is expensive and hard and not what companies have traditionally done. I run a school, and we have had employers pay for training of dozens of employees. It happens quite frequently.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - hiram112 9y ago
    US companies used to always train their employees. It was the cost of doing business. The reason they do not do so now is because employees, for obvious reasons, have no loyalty to companies, and tend to jump ship after being trained. But again, this is because US companies changed from a lifetime model of employment to layoffs and offshoring for quarterly stock bumps. Force companies to use domestic labor, create a culture where employees aren't constantly worried they'll be canned the next time sales are low, and I bet you'll get good employees who would be willing to learn and stay for the long-term.
    - austenallred 9y ago
      Worth it? I doubt it.
- AaronFriel 9y ago
  It's a supply chain issue. Software engineer demand might spike unexpectedly, and for startups, that might mean growing from a handful of employees to a hundred in a short period of time. Can that startup afford to relocate or remotely train a couple hundred out of work Americans for say, a year, pick the top half of those, and offer them packages? Maybe? Would a year's training be enough? I don't know, but I doubt it's cost effective for spiky demand in labor. This sort of supply issue should best be solved by the government, which has a vested interest in the employment of its taxpayers, or an NGO or some other organization. Not the companies in question.

furioussloth 9y ago

There might be a reason for many of those not being H1B holders. If you are H1B holder your ability to stay in country is tightly bond to your employer. You are completely dependent on your employment to stay legally in US and hardly have any wiggle room where you can quit your job and try entrepreneurship for a while if nothing works out go back to applying for another job. The visa policies should be in place for both of the cases where deserving people from other countries get funding and deserving americans get jobs at fair compensations.

nnd 9y ago

You can start a company on H1B as a minority shareholder, it's technically feasible.

doingmyting 9y ago
Technically yes, but starting a company that you can't work for in any capacity seems even silly to think about.

ecesena 9y ago

I don't think it's straightforward to create a company with a H1B, because of a chicken and egg problem. Typically you create it with an E2, which let you issue E2 visas for 3-4 other people. Then either you die, sell, or start issuing J1, later converted in H1B. H1B is generally too risky, being bound to a lottery, and that's the last thing you want at an early stage startup.

kamaal 9y ago

>>What percentage were created by H1Bs? Start ups are largely built on sweat equity. The kind of monthly salary most H1Bs generally work on. That comes with a risk. Most immigrants take it anyway because they start from 0 and you can only grow from there. If enough people do this enough number of times, eventually the system will always product a Google or Microsoft. So ultimately its about who is ready to work for cheap.