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About 50% of the biggest Silicon Valley companies were created by immigrants, so I’d be careful before claiming that Silicon Valley is an “American” invention a
by austenallred 9y ago
About 50% of the biggest Silicon Valley companies were created by immigrants, so I’d be careful before claiming that Silicon Valley is an “American” invention and that the value should accrue to “Americans,” unless your definition of “American” includes immigrants.
If an immigrant comes here and starts a company or helps make a company successful even the native-born Americans are better off. IMO that’s the most American thing that can possibly happen, and if we should be terrified at the thought of it happening somewhere else instead.
- mdorazio 9y agoWhat percentage were created by H1Bs? I think you're conflating "immigrant" with "H1B visa holder". The two are not the same. Many of us who are critical of H1B and similar visa programs are very much in support of immigration in general.
- anindha 9y agoElon Musk was on a H1B when he started his first company.
- jogjayr 9y ago> What percentage were created by H1Bs? Well H-1Bs are generally prohibited from doing any paid work outside their current employer. So it would be a miracle if that number was non-zero. But it's still not. Zenefits co-founder Laks Srini had to be hired as a database administrator on an H-1B so that he could leave his previous employer [1]. It seems unfair to say people on visa programs don't become entrepreneurs when, in most cases, they legally aren't allowed to. 1. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing/silicon-valleys-h-1b-immigration-position-has-some-holes.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing...
- CJefferson 9y agoPeople complaining about H1B visa aren't (generally) complaining about the people on the visas themselves, they are complaining about the system of H1B visas itself.
- austenallred 9y agoI don't love the way H1Bs are structured either, but the notion that "Americans created it we should keep it" is silly. Of course, H1Bs can't start companies, so that's not a very good way to look at things - if you don't legally allow category x to do y how many xs are going to do y? A better question is how many could. But let's just talk about employees. I know I've worked at companies in the past in which the backbone of the work (not all of it, but an important part) was done by H1Bs, and we wouldn't have been able to complete that work and be solvent without the (brilliant) folks that had come over on H1Bs doing it. Those, say, 25 H1B jobs created jobs for hundreds of other folks. So I'm just wary of thinking that everything is a zero sum game or that immigration is "taking jobs" of "Americans."
- ForRealsies 9y agoAnd you wonder why companies can't be assed to re-train the workforce.
- austenallred 9y agoBecause training is expensive and hard and not what companies have traditionally done. I run a school, and we have had employers pay for training of dozens of employees. It happens quite frequently.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- hiram112 9y agoUS companies used to always train their employees. It was the cost of doing business. The reason they do not do so now is because employees, for obvious reasons, have no loyalty to companies, and tend to jump ship after being trained. But again, this is because US companies changed from a lifetime model of employment to layoffs and offshoring for quarterly stock bumps. Force companies to use domestic labor, create a culture where employees aren't constantly worried they'll be canned the next time sales are low, and I bet you'll get good employees who would be willing to learn and stay for the long-term.
- furioussloth 9y agoThere might be a reason for many of those not being H1B holders. If you are H1B holder your ability to stay in country is tightly bond to your employer. You are completely dependent on your employment to stay legally in US and hardly have any wiggle room where you can quit your job and try entrepreneurship for a while if nothing works out go back to applying for another job. The visa policies should be in place for both of the cases where deserving people from other countries get funding and deserving americans get jobs at fair compensations.
- nnd 9y agoYou can start a company on H1B as a minority shareholder, it's technically feasible.
- doingmyting 9y agoTechnically yes, but starting a company that you can't work for in any capacity seems even silly to think about.
- ecesena 9y agoI don't think it's straightforward to create a company with a H1B, because of a chicken and egg problem. Typically you create it with an E2, which let you issue E2 visas for 3-4 other people. Then either you die, sell, or start issuing J1, later converted in H1B. H1B is generally too risky, being bound to a lottery, and that's the last thing you want at an early stage startup.
- kamaal 9y ago>>What percentage were created by H1Bs? Start ups are largely built on sweat equity. The kind of monthly salary most H1Bs generally work on. That comes with a risk. Most immigrants take it anyway because they start from 0 and you can only grow from there. If enough people do this enough number of times, eventually the system will always product a Google or Microsoft. So ultimately its about who is ready to work for cheap.
- alphonsegaston 9y agoI think this really depends on the kind of businesses that VCs are pursuing. Many of the current wave of startups are directed at turning the poor into an app-directed servant class, or otherwise making their lives more difficult by intensifying problems like housing instability (e.g. AirBNB). It becomes a zero sum game when the object is maximize the exploitation and vulnerability of the labor force. You’re right to say that it’s not an issue of immigrants vs natives. But rich vs. the poor in the US is becoming very “us against them.”
- pascalxus 9y agocreating jobs is not exploitation, it's opportunity.
- alphonsegaston 9y agoAnd that kind of thinking about work is dogma, not reasoned consideration.
- rhizome 9y agoIt depends on the job, and it depends on the pay.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y agoAnd how many are immigrants because of a program like this? When we call that 51% number we're including people like Musk and Thiel. I really, really want to stress this: this program and VCs support of it has nothing to do with helping immigrants. There are tons of people already here who are immigrants and who want to start companies. This program exists purely to allow VCs to buy more equity with less. It's about driving American investment down because american equity is expensive relative to the rest of the world.
- anindha 9y agoI don't understand your point about Elon Musk and why he shouldn't be included in the the 51%?
- tehlike 9y agohe can be considered second generation immigrant - thiel was very young when he moved. For musk, it's different, he seem to have come to states at a later age.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y agoBecause he didn't need a program like this to come here and found a company. My problem is that we're conflating the immigrants who will be brought here by the rule in the article with all immigrants who found companies. We've got 51% immigrant founding of Billion-Dollar+ companies already, VCs invest in immigrant founded companies already, America is already a great place for immigrant founders. The goal of this rule is not to help immigrants, it's to create them and its goal in creating them is to make it so VCs can buy equity cheaper. That is going to make it harder for everybody, immigrants included, who is already here and wants to acquire funding for their company.
- austenallred 9y agoMusk literally came here (and stayed in school) in hopes of getting an H1-B. He was on that path because it was the only way.
- metaphorm 9y agoa permanent resident immigrant is definitely an American. it's important to distinguish between temporary guest workers and Americans who were born somewhere else.
- jogjayr 9y agoIt's worth calling out that a lot of "temporary guest workers" in SV are Indian and Chinese nationals who are "in line" to get permanent residence. It just happens that the line for India and China is really long: on the order of 9 years for Indian or Chinese masters degree holders (degrees from American unis), compared to less than 2 years for someone from another country.
- anindha 9y agoA permanent resident is a green card holder not an American. It is difficult to obtain that status without a visa to begin with.