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Reading these comments it seems like where you land depends on whether you believe there are lots of Americans who have the drive/willingness to found their own

Reading these comments it seems like where you land depends on whether you believe there are lots of Americans who have the drive/willingness to found their own company. If so then constraining the visa makes sense because VCs already have a large supply of business. Similar to the H1B debate where we recognize that companies don't really care about immigration, they just want better employees for cheaper, this debate's core is that VCs just want to be able to fund better companies for cheaper. I'd say I'm fine with Trump tossing this Visa in the trash. Silicon Valley is an American creation so I don't mind if its benefits go to Americans.

8ytecoder 9y ago
Really? That's for one a weak argument. But even if we consider that at face value, there are plenty of immigrants who "created" silicon valley. It was not entirely an American creation - if by American, you make it to mean some version of how many generations someone has been here.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  >Really? That's for one a weak argument. Then lay it out. >But even if we consider that at face value, there are plenty of immigrants who "created" silicon valley. After we hash this out we can debate how many grains of sand compose a pile too. It's plainly American. >It was not entirely an American creation - if by American, you make it to mean some version of how many generations someone has been here. How about we define American like this: someone who has no other country but America. I have absolutely no problem saying that VCs which have survived and thrived in large part because they exist in America should consider Americans first and should help American kids, not purely use our country as a homebase to go out and snipe the cheapest equity opportunities possible from around the world. Pay it back guys.
  - pcwalton 9y ago
    > How about we define American like this: someone who has no other country but America. As someone with a dual citizen parent (well, next year anyway), you just excluded my parents from the definition of "American", despite my family being here since the early 1800s. I'm certain that's not what you meant.
palakchokshi 9y ago
Silicon valley might have been an American creation, but it has thrived due to immigrant founders. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
- marnett 9y ago
  permanent resident immigrants are Americans.
  - haydenlee 9y ago
    Isn't a permanent resident immigrant somebody who has a green card? Surely to be considered American you need to be a citizen, which is separate from a green card. I'm not american so very open to being wrong on this.
    - DrScump 9y ago
      The title at the top of every "green card" is "Resident Alien".
      - DrJokepu 9y ago
        This hasn’t been true for a very long time (1997). I-551 Permanent Resident Cards issued since 2010 are labelled as “United States of America / Permanent Resident”, the word “alien” is not present on the document at all.
        DrScump 9y ago
        Sorry. I haven't seen one in years. It had been the case for decades.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > permanent resident immigrants are Americans They're also immigrants. We're debating curbs on immigration. If those curbs continue to be implemented, people like those immigrants will not be future Americans.
austenallred 9y ago
About 50% of the biggest Silicon Valley companies were created by immigrants, so I’d be careful before claiming that Silicon Valley is an “American” invention and that the value should accrue to “Americans,” unless your definition of “American” includes immigrants. If an immigrant comes here and starts a company or helps make a company successful even the native-born Americans are better off. IMO that’s the most American thing that can possibly happen, and if we should be terrified at the thought of it happening somewhere else instead.
- mdorazio 9y ago
  What percentage were created by H1Bs? I think you're conflating "immigrant" with "H1B visa holder". The two are not the same. Many of us who are critical of H1B and similar visa programs are very much in support of immigration in general.
  - anindha 9y ago
    Elon Musk was on a H1B when he started his first company.
  - jogjayr 9y ago
    > What percentage were created by H1Bs? Well H-1Bs are generally prohibited from doing any paid work outside their current employer. So it would be a miracle if that number was non-zero. But it's still not. Zenefits co-founder Laks Srini had to be hired as a database administrator on an H-1B so that he could leave his previous employer [1]. It seems unfair to say people on visa programs don't become entrepreneurs when, in most cases, they legally aren't allowed to. 1. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing/silicon-valleys-h-1b-immigration-position-has-some-holes.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing...
    - CJefferson 9y ago
      People complaining about H1B visa aren't (generally) complaining about the people on the visas themselves, they are complaining about the system of H1B visas itself.
maxerickson 9y ago
A third theory is that zero sum thinking is wrong. Like it is possible that issuing H-1Bs can be better for Americans in general than issuing no H-1Bs. It depends on the total costs and benefits, not just the costs to the Americans that end up competing with H-1B holders for jobs.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  This assumes the greater wealth generated by that superior & cheaper H1B visa holder reaches the majority of Americans, which doesn't seem to be occurring.
  - atomi 9y ago
    Not if they stubbornly refuse to move from their rural communities.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      If people continue to ignore the wellbeing of rural midwest states, those states will continue to vote for antiglobalist candidates. If globalization is as important as most here makes it sound, we need to implement it in a manner that doesn't hurt nearly half of the population.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - nostrademons 9y ago
        On a social justice level, I agree with you, but I want to point out that for the folks who are actually globalists, the "population" is 7 billion humans, and the 150 million rural & small town Americans are a rounding error (just over 2%, or roughly half the population of Internet Explorer users). That's why it's important to secure the rights of minorities in any system of government.
        9y ago

8ytecoder 9y ago

Really? That's for one a weak argument. But even if we consider that at face value, there are plenty of immigrants who "created" silicon valley. It was not entirely an American creation - if by American, you make it to mean some version of how many generations someone has been here.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
>Really? That's for one a weak argument. Then lay it out. >But even if we consider that at face value, there are plenty of immigrants who "created" silicon valley. After we hash this out we can debate how many grains of sand compose a pile too. It's plainly American. >It was not entirely an American creation - if by American, you make it to mean some version of how many generations someone has been here. How about we define American like this: someone who has no other country but America. I have absolutely no problem saying that VCs which have survived and thrived in large part because they exist in America should consider Americans first and should help American kids, not purely use our country as a homebase to go out and snipe the cheapest equity opportunities possible from around the world. Pay it back guys.
- pcwalton 9y ago
  > How about we define American like this: someone who has no other country but America. As someone with a dual citizen parent (well, next year anyway), you just excluded my parents from the definition of "American", despite my family being here since the early 1800s. I'm certain that's not what you meant.

palakchokshi 9y ago

Silicon valley might have been an American creation, but it has thrived due to immigrant founders. Please don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

marnett 9y ago
permanent resident immigrants are Americans.
- haydenlee 9y ago
  Isn't a permanent resident immigrant somebody who has a green card? Surely to be considered American you need to be a citizen, which is separate from a green card. I'm not american so very open to being wrong on this.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    The title at the top of every "green card" is "Resident Alien".
    - DrJokepu 9y ago
      This hasn’t been true for a very long time (1997). I-551 Permanent Resident Cards issued since 2010 are labelled as “United States of America / Permanent Resident”, the word “alien” is not present on the document at all.
      - DrScump 9y ago
        Sorry. I haven't seen one in years. It had been the case for decades.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > permanent resident immigrants are Americans They're also immigrants. We're debating curbs on immigration. If those curbs continue to be implemented, people like those immigrants will not be future Americans.

austenallred 9y ago

About 50% of the biggest Silicon Valley companies were created by immigrants, so I’d be careful before claiming that Silicon Valley is an “American” invention and that the value should accrue to “Americans,” unless your definition of “American” includes immigrants. If an immigrant comes here and starts a company or helps make a company successful even the native-born Americans are better off. IMO that’s the most American thing that can possibly happen, and if we should be terrified at the thought of it happening somewhere else instead.

mdorazio 9y ago
What percentage were created by H1Bs? I think you're conflating "immigrant" with "H1B visa holder". The two are not the same. Many of us who are critical of H1B and similar visa programs are very much in support of immigration in general.
- anindha 9y ago
  Elon Musk was on a H1B when he started his first company.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  > What percentage were created by H1Bs? Well H-1Bs are generally prohibited from doing any paid work outside their current employer. So it would be a miracle if that number was non-zero. But it's still not. Zenefits co-founder Laks Srini had to be hired as a database administrator on an H-1B so that he could leave his previous employer [1]. It seems unfair to say people on visa programs don't become entrepreneurs when, in most cases, they legally aren't allowed to. 1. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing/silicon-valleys-h-1b-immigration-position-has-some-holes.html https://www.computerworld.com/article/2852250/it-outsourcing...
  - CJefferson 9y ago
    People complaining about H1B visa aren't (generally) complaining about the people on the visas themselves, they are complaining about the system of H1B visas itself.

maxerickson 9y ago

A third theory is that zero sum thinking is wrong. Like it is possible that issuing H-1Bs can be better for Americans in general than issuing no H-1Bs. It depends on the total costs and benefits, not just the costs to the Americans that end up competing with H-1B holders for jobs.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
This assumes the greater wealth generated by that superior & cheaper H1B visa holder reaches the majority of Americans, which doesn't seem to be occurring.
- atomi 9y ago
  Not if they stubbornly refuse to move from their rural communities.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    If people continue to ignore the wellbeing of rural midwest states, those states will continue to vote for antiglobalist candidates. If globalization is as important as most here makes it sound, we need to implement it in a manner that doesn't hurt nearly half of the population.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - nostrademons 9y ago
      On a social justice level, I agree with you, but I want to point out that for the folks who are actually globalists, the "population" is 7 billion humans, and the 150 million rural & small town Americans are a rounding error (just over 2%, or roughly half the population of Internet Explorer users). That's why it's important to secure the rights of minorities in any system of government.
      - 9y ago