5 ms·

Sure I can, I am Spanish and Catalan, so I can read the Catalan version too (not particularly interested in any of both versions). Whatever the Truth behind all

Sure I can, I am Spanish and Catalan, so I can read the Catalan version too (not particularly interested in any of both versions). Whatever the Truth behind all those complex questions is, at some point this becomes a matter of opinion. And opinions are measured at the voting booth. Modern societies should be flexible enough to allow for friction-less changes: there are no holy cows.

lz400 9y ago
There is part of it that is indeed opinion and "feeling". The cultural part, the "hecho diferencial", whatever you want to call it. But there's also the part where Montilla's government called inaceptable and "a grave offense" a completely reasonable and correct ruling of the Spanish Constitutional Court on the Catalan estatut. Thousands of people marched in Barcelona that day against Spain when in fact that ruling was fair and equitable and didn't touch much, just clarified economic assimetries are not cool, etc. The first part, the feelings, I can't share but I can respect. I don't think it makes for a significant part of Catalonia though, maybe 20-30%? The second part, the in-solidarity, I can't have simpathy for and I think Spain is right in staying put. And if that's the part that is really moving so many people to independence (and it seems that way), then I don't think this is so much a matter of opinion as it is of not knowing or not respecting the facts.
- gonvaled 9y ago
  I am really not qualified to give my opinion on fiscal issues - as most people are not. For details on these complex problems we must trust (interested) third parties, so our perceptions are necessarily biased. I do not follow neither Spanish nor Catalan news, so I have no strong opinion about these matters. But this is not the only issue: the situation in Catalonia is complex, and ultimately should only be decided by Catalan people. One of the most common arguments against the referendum, namely that people are being "brain-washed", assumes three things wrongly: 1) That brainwashing happens only in one sense. 2) That people are easily brainwashed. 3) That brainwashed people have no right to vote. The Human Right of auto-determination does not only apply to societies we are not directly related to, but specially to the cases where we have an interested stake, since that shows that we are actually committed to those rights, and not using them abstractly to control remote regions by UN proxy. The general principle applies: "I might not agree with you, but I will always defend your right to voice your opinion"
  - lz400 9y ago
    Well, you don't need a PhD to see for yourself what was done in these laws and to recognize the political intent. You kind of need to be able to, in fact, if you want to know what's happening around you and take decisions as an informed adult, and interested third parties might be biased, it's better to check and form an opinion by yourself. We can't turn any discussion of fact in "I'm not qualified so it's an opinion, so I'm entitled to mine, this is just a matter of opinion". The fact is, the demands from the Catalonian government were rightfully unconstitutional. edit to attach the sentencing in particular, it's perfectly legible (only 14 articles eliminated), and the reasons why they were excessive easy to understand. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencia_del_Tribunal_Constitucional_sobre_el_Estatuto_de_Autonom%C3%ADa_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2006 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencia_del_Tribunal_Constit...

lz400 9y ago

There is part of it that is indeed opinion and "feeling". The cultural part, the "hecho diferencial", whatever you want to call it. But there's also the part where Montilla's government called inaceptable and "a grave offense" a completely reasonable and correct ruling of the Spanish Constitutional Court on the Catalan estatut. Thousands of people marched in Barcelona that day against Spain when in fact that ruling was fair and equitable and didn't touch much, just clarified economic assimetries are not cool, etc. The first part, the feelings, I can't share but I can respect. I don't think it makes for a significant part of Catalonia though, maybe 20-30%? The second part, the in-solidarity, I can't have simpathy for and I think Spain is right in staying put. And if that's the part that is really moving so many people to independence (and it seems that way), then I don't think this is so much a matter of opinion as it is of not knowing or not respecting the facts.

gonvaled 9y ago
I am really not qualified to give my opinion on fiscal issues - as most people are not. For details on these complex problems we must trust (interested) third parties, so our perceptions are necessarily biased. I do not follow neither Spanish nor Catalan news, so I have no strong opinion about these matters. But this is not the only issue: the situation in Catalonia is complex, and ultimately should only be decided by Catalan people. One of the most common arguments against the referendum, namely that people are being "brain-washed", assumes three things wrongly: 1) That brainwashing happens only in one sense. 2) That people are easily brainwashed. 3) That brainwashed people have no right to vote. The Human Right of auto-determination does not only apply to societies we are not directly related to, but specially to the cases where we have an interested stake, since that shows that we are actually committed to those rights, and not using them abstractly to control remote regions by UN proxy. The general principle applies: "I might not agree with you, but I will always defend your right to voice your opinion"
- lz400 9y ago
  Well, you don't need a PhD to see for yourself what was done in these laws and to recognize the political intent. You kind of need to be able to, in fact, if you want to know what's happening around you and take decisions as an informed adult, and interested third parties might be biased, it's better to check and form an opinion by yourself. We can't turn any discussion of fact in "I'm not qualified so it's an opinion, so I'm entitled to mine, this is just a matter of opinion". The fact is, the demands from the Catalonian government were rightfully unconstitutional. edit to attach the sentencing in particular, it's perfectly legible (only 14 articles eliminated), and the reasons why they were excessive easy to understand. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencia_del_Tribunal_Constitucional_sobre_el_Estatuto_de_Autonom%C3%ADa_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2006 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencia_del_Tribunal_Constit...