4 ms·

I'm not sure you understood the article if you think that's what it said. The point is that Spain is a representative democracy, not a direct one and that this

• fao_ 9y ago
  > You don't get to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the country in any nation in the world And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against the Catalonian proletariat? You're right, we hopefully have put armed struggle behind us, which is an excuse for... an armed struggle? It wouldn't be a struggle if the vote was allowed to go ahead. After that you can basically strangle it through bureaucracy -- which would be the civilized way to do it. As such, they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed conflict.
  • dreamfactored 9y ago
    > And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against the Catalonian proletariats? Where have I said this? That's a disgraceful accusation. I've said that the Madrid government should resign so I'm in agreement with Ada Colau there. > if the vote was allowed to go ahead The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how democracy works. > they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed conflict You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it.
    • gonvaled 9y ago
      > The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how democracy works. Of course they are being made: what a piece of paper says has only meaning if there is a consensus behind it. A paper is not the Ultimate Truth: society must be heard, since popular opinion changes. The Catalan people have been working for their self-governance for decades, and they (rightly or wrongly) feel that the central government is not willing to accommodate their needs. It is not too much to ask to have one's voice heard about these matters once in a while, ideally with a negotiated referendum. Unfortunately the Spanish government has shown no inclination of willing to hear what kind of relationship Catalans want to have with the rest of the Spain; actually, the contrary has been the case: each time that Catalans have tried to redraw the framework they have been confronted by a very hostile central government. The Spanish government (and the majority of the Spanish people) are treating the constitution as a holy gospel, when it is exactly the opposite: it is a document which should regulate and adapt to the needs of its people, whatever they might be, and not some ultimate goal that people must abide to. > You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it. Which half should be deprived of their "rights"? Difficult question, but since separatists have been deprived of their ideal world for years, maybe they should get the chance to implement their vision? This would have been much easier if the vote had been properly organized: something with >60% turnout and >60% would had closed the case for independence, something with >60% turnout and <40% would have closed it for remaining in Spain, and something in between would have been grounds for further discussions and negotiations. As it stands, the handling of the situation by the Spanish government puts us in a very awkward situation. I would say the case for independence is pretty much sealed, since the chances that the Spanish government takes the Catalans seriously is pretty much null.
  • jwhitlark 9y ago
    Note that Catalonia is one of the richer sections of Spain. Would you let the rich section of town succeed in order to avoid paying taxes that benefit the poor? Democracy also requires protecting people from the tyranny of the (in this case, local) majority.
  • pvaldes 9y ago
    "It's the same old theme, since nineteen-sixteen..." First of all, this is not definitely a case of "violence against proletariat". You can find lots of Catalonian people in this group that neither want the independence nor probably felt particularly oppressed when the police came to protect their rights as spanish citizens. And there is also the "repression and violence", lets see: Let suppose that a group of people, men, women, elders and children, enter in a public school in a saturday night, with the intention to doing something illegal like, dunno, selling endangered parrots. The police came the next day with the direct order from a jury, to just remove the materials needed for the illegal trade, dislodge the public building, close and custody it for the entire sunday. But when they were asked by the autorities to end the party and go home, the people instead decide to sit in the soil, start singing "kumbaya" and refuse to move. And when policemen try to remove the ofending material they make a wall of interlaced bodies to deliberately obstruct their orders. So the police starts picking up one person at a time and moving them out. One to one. This happens in the same week that groups of the same people assaulted and damaged some police cars, throw heavy objects to the police, and even chased some policemen in the streets with a rain of rocks (sending some of they to the hospital). And other people harassed police in their hotels making loud noises that annoy all the clients of the hotel, that probably couldn't sleep in the entire night and didn't deserved this treatment. What do you think would happen in USA if you decide starting to spit literally and repeatedly in the face of the local sheriff after hours of defying the autorities and showing a stubborn, irrational and totally unreasonable behaviour? Would you gain a ticket to deservely enter the draw of a couple of bruises? Taking in mind the situation and the 2 millions of people involved it was practically a miracle that nobody were killed, only two people got seriously injured (unfortunately of course, one claimed as an accident when some policemen cornered started shooting rubber balls to clear a way out, and the other was the old woman hit in the head I think, but I could be wrong). The immense majority among the eight thousands of the people classified as 'injured' got away probably with only a few scratches and maybe a panick attack. And this is "the first war on internet", so don't trust in all that you see in the social networks. There was for example a very moving photo from a boy with some blood running by his cheek... the problem is that the photo was taken in 2012, not in 2017 as claimed. There is one thing that was particularly brutal in this history, and it was the patience of the spanish policemen and policewomen