5 ms·

See https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841 https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841

ardit33 9y ago
I just read it, and it the whole point is: referendum is declared illegal, and therefore it is ok for Spain's crackdown on it. And people should not vote on illegal things, so they deserve it..... The point of democracy is for people to voice their opinions and vote on their future. Even if the referendum has no legal binding, it should have been allowed to happen. What's next, "polls" being declared illegal?
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  I'm not sure you understood the article if you think that's what it said. The point is that Spain is a representative democracy, not a direct one and that this is the way every modern democracy works. Democracy is therefore about voicing your opinion on who will govern, not on specific issues. You don't get to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the country in any nation in the world - devolution has to be negotiated and it takes generations. The alternative is force and armed struggle - the Basque and Northern Ireland approach, which we've hopefully put behind us.
  - fao_ 9y ago
    > You don't get to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the country in any nation in the world And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against the Catalonian proletariat? You're right, we hopefully have put armed struggle behind us, which is an excuse for... an armed struggle? It wouldn't be a struggle if the vote was allowed to go ahead. After that you can basically strangle it through bureaucracy -- which would be the civilized way to do it. As such, they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed conflict.
    - dreamfactored 9y ago
      > And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against the Catalonian proletariats? Where have I said this? That's a disgraceful accusation. I've said that the Madrid government should resign so I'm in agreement with Ada Colau there. > if the vote was allowed to go ahead The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how democracy works. > they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed conflict You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it.
      - gonvaled 9y ago
        > The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how democracy works. Of course they are being made: what a piece of paper says has only meaning if there is a consensus behind it. A paper is not the Ultimate Truth: society must be heard, since popular opinion changes. The Catalan people have been working for their self-governance for decades, and they (rightly or wrongly) feel that the central government is not willing to accommodate their needs. It is not too much to ask to have one's voice heard about these matters once in a while, ideally with a negotiated referendum. Unfortunately the Spanish government has shown no inclination of willing to hear what kind of relationship Catalans want to have with the rest of the Spain; actually, the contrary has been the case: each time that Catalans have tried to redraw the framework they have been confronted by a very hostile central government. The Spanish government (and the majority of the Spanish people) are treating the constitution as a holy gospel, when it is exactly the opposite: it is a document which should regulate and adapt to the needs of its people, whatever they might be, and not some ultimate goal that people must abide to. > You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it. Which half should be deprived of their "rights"? Difficult question, but since separatists have been deprived of their ideal world for years, maybe they should get the chance to implement their vision? This would have been much easier if the vote had been properly organized: something with >60% turnout and >60% would had closed the case for independence, something with >60% turnout and <40% would have closed it for remaining in Spain, and something in between would have been grounds for further discussions and negotiations. As it stands, the handling of the situation by the Spanish government puts us in a very awkward situation. I would say the case for independence is pretty much sealed, since the chances that the Spanish government takes the Catalans seriously is pretty much null.
jwhitlark 9y ago
This should not be downvoted. It is a well argued and supported piece on why the vote is inappropriate, regardless of the merits of Catalonian independence.
- colanderman 9y ago
  While well written, it does not attempt justify Spain's physical (police) response to prevent the vote, over a legal (court) response to nullify the vote, which I suspect is the issue most people have with Spain's response (it is certainly what I take offense to), save the following tu quoque: > One more thing to consider: three years ago, the separatist Catalan government authorised police force to stop a popular “multireferendum” about a number of social issues in Catalonia, confiscating ballot boxes. Clearly, the Catalan leaders do not think that casting a ballot is always okay. In fact, the piece goes so far as to call the physical response justified: > Hundreds or thousands of elected officials and public servants in Catalonia are disobeying the law, perverting justice, defying judges and diverting funds for the “referendum”. They had to be stopped, thus the few detentions (all mandated by independent judges who are acting well within the law). That is no excessive use of force. Good. Let them. The act of hosting a vote does not physically harm anyone, it does not "have to be stopped". Indict the officials who are in breach of the law afterward.
  - tripu 9y ago
    > The piece goes so far as to call the physical response justified. I wrote that article a few days before the fake referendum. In no way was I defending violent repression by the police. I had no idea that we would witness what finally happened on 1 October. > The act of hosting a vote does not physically harm anyone. Not directly, no. But I still think that not every conceivable question should be submitted to the people expecting the answer to be binding (my points #1, #2 and #4). If this were posed as a "poll" (even an "official", "institutional" one), most people in Spain would not have an issue with it. The "legally binding" part is what's troubling. That being said, and in the light of what finally happened on 1 October, perhaps you are right: the Spanish government could have let the whole farce play, then ignore the "results" and prosecute those responsible for it.

I just read it, and it the whole point is: referendum is declared illegal, and therefore it is ok for Spain's crackdown on it. And people should not vote on illegal things, so they deserve it..... The point of democracy is for people to voice their opinions and vote on their future. Even if the referendum has no legal binding, it should have been allowed to happen. What's next, "polls" being declared illegal?

dreamfactored 9y ago
I'm not sure you understood the article if you think that's what it said. The point is that Spain is a representative democracy, not a direct one and that this is the way every modern democracy works. Democracy is therefore about voicing your opinion on who will govern, not on specific issues. You don't get to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the country in any nation in the world - devolution has to be negotiated and it takes generations. The alternative is force and armed struggle - the Basque and Northern Ireland approach, which we've hopefully put behind us.
- fao_ 9y ago
  > You don't get to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the country in any nation in the world And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against the Catalonian proletariat? You're right, we hopefully have put armed struggle behind us, which is an excuse for... an armed struggle? It wouldn't be a struggle if the vote was allowed to go ahead. After that you can basically strangle it through bureaucracy -- which would be the civilized way to do it. As such, they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed conflict.
  - dreamfactored 9y ago
    > And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against the Catalonian proletariats? Where have I said this? That's a disgraceful accusation. I've said that the Madrid government should resign so I'm in agreement with Ada Colau there. > if the vote was allowed to go ahead The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how democracy works. > they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed conflict You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it.
    - gonvaled 9y ago
      > The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how democracy works. Of course they are being made: what a piece of paper says has only meaning if there is a consensus behind it. A paper is not the Ultimate Truth: society must be heard, since popular opinion changes. The Catalan people have been working for their self-governance for decades, and they (rightly or wrongly) feel that the central government is not willing to accommodate their needs. It is not too much to ask to have one's voice heard about these matters once in a while, ideally with a negotiated referendum. Unfortunately the Spanish government has shown no inclination of willing to hear what kind of relationship Catalans want to have with the rest of the Spain; actually, the contrary has been the case: each time that Catalans have tried to redraw the framework they have been confronted by a very hostile central government. The Spanish government (and the majority of the Spanish people) are treating the constitution as a holy gospel, when it is exactly the opposite: it is a document which should regulate and adapt to the needs of its people, whatever they might be, and not some ultimate goal that people must abide to. > You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it. Which half should be deprived of their "rights"? Difficult question, but since separatists have been deprived of their ideal world for years, maybe they should get the chance to implement their vision? This would have been much easier if the vote had been properly organized: something with >60% turnout and >60% would had closed the case for independence, something with >60% turnout and <40% would have closed it for remaining in Spain, and something in between would have been grounds for further discussions and negotiations. As it stands, the handling of the situation by the Spanish government puts us in a very awkward situation. I would say the case for independence is pretty much sealed, since the chances that the Spanish government takes the Catalans seriously is pretty much null.

jwhitlark 9y ago

This should not be downvoted. It is a well argued and supported piece on why the vote is inappropriate, regardless of the merits of Catalonian independence.

colanderman 9y ago
While well written, it does not attempt justify Spain's physical (police) response to prevent the vote, over a legal (court) response to nullify the vote, which I suspect is the issue most people have with Spain's response (it is certainly what I take offense to), save the following tu quoque: > One more thing to consider: three years ago, the separatist Catalan government authorised police force to stop a popular “multireferendum” about a number of social issues in Catalonia, confiscating ballot boxes. Clearly, the Catalan leaders do not think that casting a ballot is always okay. In fact, the piece goes so far as to call the physical response justified: > Hundreds or thousands of elected officials and public servants in Catalonia are disobeying the law, perverting justice, defying judges and diverting funds for the “referendum”. They had to be stopped, thus the few detentions (all mandated by independent judges who are acting well within the law). That is no excessive use of force. Good. Let them. The act of hosting a vote does not physically harm anyone, it does not "have to be stopped". Indict the officials who are in breach of the law afterward.
- tripu 9y ago
  > The piece goes so far as to call the physical response justified. I wrote that article a few days before the fake referendum. In no way was I defending violent repression by the police. I had no idea that we would witness what finally happened on 1 October. > The act of hosting a vote does not physically harm anyone. Not directly, no. But I still think that not every conceivable question should be submitted to the people expecting the answer to be binding (my points #1, #2 and #4). If this were posed as a "poll" (even an "official", "institutional" one), most people in Spain would not have an issue with it. The "legally binding" part is what's troubling. That being said, and in the light of what finally happened on 1 October, perhaps you are right: the Spanish government could have let the whole farce play, then ignore the "results" and prosecute those responsible for it.