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Over half of the population chose not to participate in an illegal vote that the police were lawfully shutting down. Clearly, it's only the supporters of indepe
by marcoperaza 9y ago
Over half of the population chose not to participate in an illegal vote that the police were lawfully shutting down. Clearly, it's only the supporters of independence who would be motivated to turn out anyway. People who respect the legal authority of the Spanish government all stayed home. This has no legitimacy.
- colanderman 9y agoWhy the need to "lawfully shut down" a vote with force? Why can't Spain just… ignore the results?
- gonvaled 9y agoPretty difficult since a unilateral declaration of independence is due in the coming days / weeks.
- colanderman 9y agoSo? Ignore the declaration of independence. Let Catalonia decide what that means. Whatever action any person (civilian or official) in Catalonia takes under the guise of "independence" – be it non-payment of taxes, or eviction of Spanish military – presumably there are laws against that. Criminalizing a vote – to the point of beating people – is beyond stupid. It strengthens the cause for Catalonian independence. It only makes rational sense if the Spanish government is very afraid of what a "legitimate" vote says.
- mrhappyunhappy 9y agoWhat are you doing here with common sense? Get outa here!
- gonvaled 9y agoThings could get out of hand very easily: the Catalan government has been supportive (organizer) of the whole process, and will probably be willing to clash with the Spanish government (hopefully not violently) to defend the newly formed republic.
- Tech-Noir 9y agoYes, we all remember the time Hungary and Czechoslovakia behaved illegally. Quite right that the Soviets lawfully, according to their own laws, shut that down.
- marcoperaza 9y agoI'm not making any claims about what the Spaniards should or should not have done, only about what they did accomplish: undermining the legitimacy of the referendum.
- Tech-Noir 9y agoBut by arguing/accepting that you're essentially saying all a state has to do to prevent a secession (however popular) is disrupt the election/referendum process.
- jwhitlark 9y agoIt is frequently quite popular to violate people's rights. Holding polls are not the final word in a free society, they are only one leg of the stool.
- sergiotapia 9y agoClearly a ton of people supporting independence stayed at home to not get their heads bashed in by police and hired thugs. It evens out.
- dreamfactored 9y agoI suspect you don't know many Catalans. They are not cowed that easily and always ready to take to the streets. I saw a marvellous clip earlier of a white haired little old lady of about 90 going for the throat of one of the state stormtrooper wannabes
- Retric 9y agoThe majority stay home for most elections, that says little. Granted your argument would have more weight if say 10% of the population voted, but with 40+% of the population voting you need to accept many yes and no voters stayed home out of fear. Or more widely if their where much doubt the government would have let a vote take place secure in the knowledge they had popular support.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- lz400 9y agoThere are reports of people voting 4 times, and of people from another region voting after presenting an id from another region. There were no election observers from neutral or "no" political forces. The "international" observers were secessionists from other regions of Spain. I don't believe the 40%. I don't believe anything. This vote was a joke from its inception. As much as it was horrible from the national government to beat people, it's as horrible to push people to go out and fight riot police for a sham of a referendum.
- centimeter 9y ago> There are reports of people voting 4 times Who is making this report, why should I trust them, and do they have evidence this is a statistically meaningful problem?
- lz400 9y agoSeveral people and they provided pictures and testimony. There are more facts, like that the organization changed the methods 15m before starting and lost internet access and had to resort to writing people's names manually without checks are not even disputed by the Catalan authorities. They breached ~50% of their own electoral law, that they made up for this event alone. You are not going to find a statistical study of the elections, obviously. But nobody who was watching impartially has any doubts as to the fraud guarantees.
- dpatru 9y agoI would say that the illegitimacy is on the part of the Spanish government and the police who used violence to prevent a peaceful political statement by the people.
- mixmastamyk 9y agoNo such thing as an “illegal vote.” Natural law and all that.