4 ms·

While I'm all for democracy, this paragraph here seems to imply this wasn't quite that: Catalan officials instead relied on privately printed ballots, and chan

by vxNsr 9y ago

While I'm all for democracy, this paragraph here seems to imply this wasn't quite that: Catalan officials instead relied on privately printed ballots, and changed the voting rules an hour before polls were scheduled to open, to allow voters to cast a ballot at any poll station, without using an envelope and whether registered there or not.

colanderman 9y ago
Who cares? Ignore the results, challenge them in court. Sending in police to beat people for writing on slips of paper is fascism in its purest form.
toyg 9y ago
They were trying to resist a violent crackdown, equivalent to trying to vote under military occupation. It’s a miracle any ballot was cast at all, not exactly the time for being picky on how it happened. Without the crackdown, the vote could have been monitored by independent organisations, like it happens in modern democracy.
p49k 9y ago
Weren’t they forced to do that due to blocking of precincts by Spanish police, though? That specific rule change makes sense in context.
- ethbro 9y ago
  The difference between politics in theory and politics in practice is how legal decisions are applied. Sending in the riot police to enforce the ban made the Spanish government look weak and fearful. In all actuality, they could have just said "Sure, vote. The results won't be legal."
nextos 9y ago
I'm also all for democracy. And the Spanish government has handled the situation atrociously. But the referendum is a joke. Both the way it was called, and how it has been conducted. Furthermore, the result is impossible to believe given previous results in open elections. A sad day for Spain and Catalonia.
- toyg 9y ago
  But this would have been the case even without the crackdown. After this unilateral act of repression, it becomes a total propaganda victory for indipendentists. It was a stupid approach from a very weak government.
- gonvaled 9y ago
  It's not a joke: it's the best you could get given the constraints.
- tomjakubowski 9y ago
  > Furthermore, the result is impossible to believe given previous results in open elections. A natural or man-made disaster during a vote filters out the less "passionate" portion of the electorate; if you don't care that much about an election's outcome, a thunderstorm or the threat of riot police cracking open your skull would probably convince you to stay home rather than visit your polling place. I would imagine the bulk of the "passion" on this topic would reside with the separatists, so it stands to reason the police action ironically resulted in suppressing the "remain" vote.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- JCzynski 9y ago
  It had 90% in favor instead of 80% like the previous one, and got modestly more votes than the separatist parties received in the last regional election. The result is eminently believable.
dreamfactored 9y ago
As I understand there wasn't even a 'no' campaign and the whole thing was created and run by the 'yes' campaign. Surprising they didn't get nearer 100% in those circumstances. (Police brutality by the Madrid government is a separate resigning issue.)
- gonvaled 9y ago
  There was no yes campaign because the non-independentists were against the right to vote. Nevertheless, turnout has been quite high.
  - dreamfactored 9y ago
    A little out of date now on point 9 but otherwise not unreasonable as far as I can see - https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841 https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841
    - gonvaled 9y ago
      Not answering point by point, but this is just a referendum in 40 years, overwhelmingly wanted by catalans, and just about moving borders, not sterilising anybody. And yes, police has been sent.
      - tripu 9y ago
        I don't think the "referendum" was "overwhelmingly wanted by catalans"; what is your source? "Just about moving borders" makes it sound as if that were a trivial change. It would be huge for Spain.
    - JCzynski 9y ago
      His first four claims (plus #11) are just wrong. He's not even addressing the points, let alone rebutting them.
      - tripu 9y ago
codefined 9y ago
To be fair, when police are shutting down a not insignificant number of polling stations, it seems justified to allow people to vote at any polling station and not just the one that is potentially shut down.

by vxNsr 9y ago

colanderman 9y ago

Who cares? Ignore the results, challenge them in court. Sending in police to beat people for writing on slips of paper is fascism in its purest form.

toyg 9y ago

They were trying to resist a violent crackdown, equivalent to trying to vote under military occupation. It’s a miracle any ballot was cast at all, not exactly the time for being picky on how it happened. Without the crackdown, the vote could have been monitored by independent organisations, like it happens in modern democracy.

p49k 9y ago

Weren’t they forced to do that due to blocking of precincts by Spanish police, though? That specific rule change makes sense in context.

ethbro 9y ago
The difference between politics in theory and politics in practice is how legal decisions are applied. Sending in the riot police to enforce the ban made the Spanish government look weak and fearful. In all actuality, they could have just said "Sure, vote. The results won't be legal."

nextos 9y ago

I'm also all for democracy. And the Spanish government has handled the situation atrociously. But the referendum is a joke. Both the way it was called, and how it has been conducted. Furthermore, the result is impossible to believe given previous results in open elections. A sad day for Spain and Catalonia.

toyg 9y ago
But this would have been the case even without the crackdown. After this unilateral act of repression, it becomes a total propaganda victory for indipendentists. It was a stupid approach from a very weak government.
gonvaled 9y ago
It's not a joke: it's the best you could get given the constraints.
tomjakubowski 9y ago
> Furthermore, the result is impossible to believe given previous results in open elections. A natural or man-made disaster during a vote filters out the less "passionate" portion of the electorate; if you don't care that much about an election's outcome, a thunderstorm or the threat of riot police cracking open your skull would probably convince you to stay home rather than visit your polling place. I would imagine the bulk of the "passion" on this topic would reside with the separatists, so it stands to reason the police action ironically resulted in suppressing the "remain" vote.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
JCzynski 9y ago
It had 90% in favor instead of 80% like the previous one, and got modestly more votes than the separatist parties received in the last regional election. The result is eminently believable.

dreamfactored 9y ago

As I understand there wasn't even a 'no' campaign and the whole thing was created and run by the 'yes' campaign. Surprising they didn't get nearer 100% in those circumstances. (Police brutality by the Madrid government is a separate resigning issue.)

gonvaled 9y ago
There was no yes campaign because the non-independentists were against the right to vote. Nevertheless, turnout has been quite high.
- dreamfactored 9y ago
  A little out of date now on point 9 but otherwise not unreasonable as far as I can see - https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841 https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841
  - gonvaled 9y ago
    Not answering point by point, but this is just a referendum in 40 years, overwhelmingly wanted by catalans, and just about moving borders, not sterilising anybody. And yes, police has been sent.
    - tripu 9y ago
      I don't think the "referendum" was "overwhelmingly wanted by catalans"; what is your source? "Just about moving borders" makes it sound as if that were a trivial change. It would be huge for Spain.
  - JCzynski 9y ago
    His first four claims (plus #11) are just wrong. He's not even addressing the points, let alone rebutting them.
    - tripu 9y ago

codefined 9y ago

To be fair, when police are shutting down a not insignificant number of polling stations, it seems justified to allow people to vote at any polling station and not just the one that is potentially shut down.