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Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence
- randiantech 9y agoThere are reports of people voting from two to 4 different schools. Wondering what methods authorities used to ensure there was no fraud on these referendum.
- hyper_reality 9y agoI suspect that will be one argument used by the Spanish authorities as to why the referendum was invalid.
- droopyEyelids 9y agoSounds pretty amazing, with all the violence and militarized police abusing the voters, for some people to be dedicated enough to go through it four times
- confounded 9y agoWhat would you propose in a situation where voting gets you beaten, and schools hosting ballots get smashed up?
- hjrnunes 9y agoThey organisers knew the courts had instructed police to stop it. If they wanted to protest then they should've organised protests and demonstrations, which are perfectly allowed in Spain. That would be the democratic way. Not to insist on breaking the law and disobeying court orders.
- plaintext-cat 9y agoFirst-hand experience: Paper census lists aside, you could only vote via a centralized web service where your National ID would be noted. You couldn’t vote twice, despite (one) montage claims so.
- farresito 9y agoI voted. I can't talk about all the schools, but the ones I checked made sure (electronically) that you didn't vote twice, but of course there's a chance that some people did indeed vote more than once if for some reason they manually wrote down the name.
- lacaza 9y agoCheck this out: https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016 https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016 https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957 https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957 https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566 https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566
- plaintext-cat 9y agoDo not disinform. Names were NEVER written down. Either you voted because you were on the list, or the system validated you were a voter who didn’t vote yet.
- qeternity 9y agoAs much as I'd like to see Catalonians have a voice in this, given that the referendum is was ruled illegal it seems unlikely that the "no" vote would come out in droves. One crime in protest of another?
- plaintext-cat 9y agoCalling a referendum is not a crime nor felony in Spain. For the No to win, nearly 80% of the census should have voted, and that’s assuming all new votes are for No. Absurd. Spain is over, it lost. Watch it live in the markets tomorrow.
- orbitingpluto 9y agoHow do you think externally forced legality factors into self-determination of a group of people encapsulated linguistically and geographically into a larger nation? If this was a referendum in Tibet voting to leave China, would you have a different position?
- peteretep 9y agoAnd indeed, turn out was pretty low
- richardknop 9y agoLot of people were stopped from voting though. Police shut down hundreds of polling stations and intervened in other stations trying to stop people from voting. 42% turnout under these drastic conditions when police is beating up people on streets is not low imho.
- sgc 9y agoYeah ... if you are willing to take a boot to the face to vote, you probably want to change the status quo. But the boots to the face then validate the results and the rest will be history.
- bjterry 9y agoGame theoretically, the fact that the Spanish government was so dead set against the vote implies that they thought there was a significant probability that it would be over 50% regardless. It seems like if a government resorts to violence to stop separatism movements, that violence is prima facie evidence that the separatist sentiment potentially represents the majority of a region. I have actually been surprised by Spain's response to this. I have always assumed that self-determination was a principle that modern Europeans actually believed in, rather than something that was only a political convenience. I don't know that much about history, though, so perhaps I could be more cynical on the topic.
- Mikeb85 9y agoNo western government believes in self-determination. They only believe in results that favour western hegemony. For example, Orange Revolution = good. Crimean referendum = bad. Arab Spring = good. Independent Kurdistan = bad. And so on.
- wott 9y agoCataluña es España = good Косово је Србија = bad
- sgc 9y agoI don't know if you have spent much time in Spain, but they have a tendency to be pretty heavy handed even when they don't need to be. It is a large contributor to the Basque separatist movement for example. I am still waiting to get better numbers on how many people voted etc. since the reports are wildly disparate, but I wouldn't be surprised if the move was more to send a message to other separatist movements than to deal with today in itself. Regardless, I think the bigger take away from these events is that they have made their bed and now must lay in it. Almost any result of this vote could have been more easily dealt with in almost any other way they could imagine.
- Mikeb85 9y agoIt's absurd that in a Western 'democracy' you'd have the national police out to suppress a referendum and attack peaceful voters. Good job Spain, you just legitimised the referendum and gave Catalonia a ton of international sympathy.
- freehunter 9y agoYou're right. I've never been to Spain, I know no one from Spain, and I don't really know anything about Spain, but I do know that using a militarized police force to stop an election, even one that is technically illegal, is pretty messed up and will only serve to further prove the separatists right. If you make peaceful protest illegal, you make violent revolution inevitable. Even if it's illegal to declare independence, it should never be illegal to vote on anything. I have no stake in the outcome in any way, but at this point I'm rooting for independence. Spain has really proven that they're not worthy of ruling over Catalans if this is how they're treating them during a simple election.
- hjrnunes 9y agoThat is ridiculous. There was a court order to stop that action. What sort of democracy is it when you can just ignore court orders? If they wanted to protest then they should've organised protests and demonstrations. If they really wanted to make a point, organise a symbolic voting and have someone face the charges. To go ahead with the whole thing was reckless. The courts cannot afford to allow themselves to be ignored. That's the very opposite of the rule of Law!
- pako_crack 9y agospot on.
- freehunter 9y agoA court order to stop a vote, to me, is appalling. It should be ignored. A vote is just a protest, it is purely symbolic until it's implemented. Voting should never be illegal, even if implementing the law voted on would be illegal. Marijuana is illegal in many places in the US. It's illegal at the federal level, and even if it's legal in some states, the federal government can still arrest you for having marijuana. But we constantly have votes to try to legalize it at the local or state level, knowing that it's still illegal at the national level. Having that vote is not illegal, even if following through with the results of the vote is illegal. Courts are not infallible and their orders are not always the best course of action. Almost every declaration of independence throughout history has been considered illegal. They were reckless. They were against the rule of law. They still happened. Regardless, a vote is a peaceful action. Responding to that peaceful action with violence is what is reckless and against the rule of law. I guess there are still some freedoms we take for granted in the US that other countries have not yet granted themselves.
- argonaut 9y agoI thought this analysis article was really thought-provoking and now I have uncertain and mixed feelings about the referendum: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/world/europe/independence-movements-catalans-kurds.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/world/europe/independence.... Basically, when it comes to things like this there's a conflict between two international ideals: integrity of national borders and human rights. And there are some thought provoking ideas in the article. If you think about it, if all of Spain voted in this referendum (since this would affect the resources and borders of the entire nation), what would the result be? There are obviously major and critical differences, but if you look at another issue, Crimea, most people there would actually rather be with Russia. But obviously the rest of Ukraine didn't agree with that. And Crimea actually tried to hold referendums in the past that were blocked by the national government. The "referendum" that Crimea ended up holding (to legitimize the annexation) was declared illegal by the UN, but that's exactly what Spain's constitutional court did in the Catalan referendum. Very complex issue and not as cut and dry as I had thought it to be.
- coenhyde 9y agoI don't think it's appropriate to ask the citizens of the rest of the country if they support the secession. To create a simple analogy lets say you have a group of five people. One is a captive and four are the captors. Is it appropriate to have a referendum with all five people to vote on if the captive is allow to go free? No the four captors are always going to vote no. The captive has to escape without the support of the captors.
- demonshalo 9y agoThis to me is essentially eternal political debate between the collective vs. the individual. Do we "put down" the individual in order to promote the well-being of the collective (read tyrannical majority rule) or do we value the rights of the individual regardless of they impact the collective? I am personally on the side of the latter. Secession is by definition a break out from the collective. So considering what the collective wants seems to me like asking the majority to vote for their tyrannical interest (very biased way of doing things).
- nsnick 9y agoThis will end up as a shooting war.
- sundvor 9y agoWell, blood has already been spilt - seems like the Spanish PM _really_ doesn't want democracy to take place: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/01/dozens-injured-as-riot-police-storm-catalan-ref-polling-stations https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/01/dozens-injured... What a disgrace.
- kcorbitt 9y ago...that's extremely unlikely. Independence doesn't have anywhere close to 90% support in reality, it's just that the pro-Spain faction didn't turn out to vote.
- Retric 9y agoAs far as I can tell, US independence had minority support (~40 - 45% of the white population) they however where willing to fight. With others either neutral or Loyalists.
- scythe 9y agoScottish referendum: allowed, failed Kurdish referendum: suppressed, succeeded Catalan referendum: suppressed, succeeded It's a little too early to call it a pattern, but it has the appearance of one.
- vxNsr 9y agoBritish referendum: allowed, succeeded
- peteretep 9y agoYou could interpret that as the Scottish referendum having been allowed because it was thought unlikely to succeed.
- dna_polymerase 9y agoIt's a bit early to call both the Kurdish as well as the Catalan referenda 'succeeded'. The Kurds will face difficulties with Turkey and Iraq. The Catalans will have their very own set of problems, I don't think anything is decided right there.
- richardknop 9y agoCounter example: Brexit referendum - allowed, succeeded
- davidcollantes 9y agoA 90% of less than 40% of the voting population is minuscule.
- richardknop 9y agoNo it's not miniscule. That's 36% of all eligible voters. Donald Trump won election with 26% of eligible voters. Obama and GWB won with around 30%. Also given the circumstances where police shuts down hundreds of polling stations, seizes ballot boxes, imprisons local authorities and starts beating people on the streets, that's a good turnout.
- gtirloni 9y agoI understand the freedom argument but it's probably coming at a very high price for little practical gain. It seems a form of Brexit, based largely on emotions without a clear path forward. Catalonia becomes a nation state and then what? Are they now an island in the EU? Easy trade with all other regions in Spain now has to go through taxes and trade agreements? How much is debt increasing? https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/21/heres-how-bad-economically-a-spain-catalonia-split-could-really-be.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/21/heres-how-bad-economically-a...
- throwaway5752 9y agoFunny you mention Brexit. https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-independence-0a83cd016972/ https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-independence-0a8... http://www.smh.com.au/world/on-catalan-independence-julian-assange-edward-snowden-emerge-as-surprise-backers-20170925-gyoqxs.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/on-catalan-independence-julian-a... Seems to be modest pattern emerging.
- thescribe 9y agoIf you are ideologically opposed to large and powerful nation states you'd almost categorically support breaking them into smaller states.
- throwaway5752 9y agoJust like he supports breaking up Russia? Did you read the 2nd link and look at the ranking of influencers on #catalonia?
- noncoml 9y agoI think it’s more similar to the Scottish independence referendum than to Brexit. Even if there was no good reason for independence to begin with, police violently trying to stop the referendum makes now the best argument for independence. Edit: And I say that as a strong supporter of a tightly unified Europe with a single constitution, government and all.
- lacaza 9y agoI feel a little bit disappointed with hacker news having this superficial and anti-analytical article in the front page. As a Spaniard id like to address some points brought up here in the comments. I've read people comparing this with Crimea, thoughts on self determination, thoughts on the repression by the government, etc. The first thing is to question the referendum itself: there was no census, there are people from Madrid voting, people voting twice, people inserting 4 votes at once, etc. The percentage of Catalan people voting this probably doesn't even get to 15%. And the people how came to vote were the only the ones who believed this referendum was democratic (99.9% of people who want the independence). Then there's the legitimacy of this referendum. In order to make this referendum, the catalan parliament approved new laws without majority and breaking the Catalan laws in a dictatorial disgraceful manner. This referendum is illegal and unconstitutional. There are millions of public money and public space used in order to carry on with "crime of sedition", using the political force against the law in order to rebel against the institutions. If anybody recalls past dictatorships, many of them had these kind of referendums. After knowing how this referendum was done and why it was illegal and anti democratic, I'd like to address the people who can't conceive liberty with rules. Referendums on self determination are unconstitutional by law in Spain, I can agree on a change on the constitution. But to change the constitution in order to allow these referendums you need a national referendum, because your changing the constitution of all the country, not just Catalonia . I will finally argue on self determination and try to clear some superficial comments I've read. The first and impulsive thought all of us have is to think that everybody should decide about everything. But in reality, that extreme liberty can take on someone else's liberty. If you allow catalonia to self determine their independence and then they do get independent, the next will be país vasco, then Galicia, then Madrid, and so on. The problem with this is not that the country would disappear (I'm not very patriotic) the problem is you're creating extreme inequality by regions. If Madrid gets independent they become rich because they give a great percentage of their gdp to Spain in taxes. But andalucia or Extremadura would become extremely poor. If you have a little bit of socialistic view, you can understand this is wrong. It's against redistribution, against equality, against globalization, and pro-isolation, xenophobia and discrimination. Also, Catalonia can never be compared with Scotland, their history is null in contrast. Their identity is as special as many other regions of spain. [0]Here are some tweets on how the referendum was done: Guy votes 4 times https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016 https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016 People voting https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957 https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957 Fake census on a small town https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566 https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566
- bassman9000 9y agoSeeing threads like this makes me want to go back, and ask for forgiveness for all the occassions in which I strongly voiced an opinion in matters I had absolutely no background, and for which I was utterly unqualified to talk about. Because it's clear that most people here have no clue about how Spanish constitution works, how it was ratified in 78/79, including Catalonia, what are the consequences of using public funding for illegal activities, including polling, and how states have a say in their whole, and each of their parts. Lesson learned. I'm sorry.
- whiddershins 9y agoSince the referendum was illegal according to the Spanish government, and involved violent clashes with police, it wouldn't be surprising if 90% of the people who actually showed up and voted anyway were separatists.
- pako_crack 9y agoWow, I didn't expect a sensationalist headline like this would sneak its way in in Hacker News. Be aware of fake and this kind of headlines before posting in HN!