7 ms·

it depends on what foods you are eating. wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order. if you could care less about maximizing the experi

it depends on what foods you are eating. wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order. if you could care less about maximizing the experience, thats fine, but drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling.

jaggederest 9y ago
> wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order. > drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling. I'm pretty sure that these two statements are contradictory. Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that. And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape. Wine is treated differently precisely for the kind of reasons that you have to explicitly disclaim "pretending to be wealthy" as a motivation.
- foldr 9y ago
  Orange juice clearly doesn't go with food in the same way that wine does.
  - delecti 9y ago
    As someone who enjoys orange juice and thinks more than 95% of wine tastes awful, I agree but probably in the opposite direction that you intended with your statement.
    - foldr 9y ago
      I enjoy orange juice too, but it doesn't go well with food.
      - kbutler 9y ago
        I'm with the grandparent on this one - I like OJ with various foods.
      - ionised 9y ago
        OJ goes great with my meals.
      - delecti 9y ago
        I'm astounded by how many comments in this thread state as absolutes things that are obviously personal preference. I have never in my life felt a meal was better because of the addition of wine, but I find orange juice to be a compliment to a meal on a regular basis.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that. I love orange juice, but I don't want it with my steak.
  - Radim 9y ago
    ...since we're trading anecdotes, I'd much prefer juice to wine with my steak. Although I typically go with my favourite drink of all -- plain water.
  - greggman 9y ago
    Steak cooked with ponzu sauce is a amazing. Ponzu is a sauce made from citrus fruits. So yes, for some oranges and steak go together great.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      Ponzu sauce is made with a bitter citrus - much more 'lemon' than 'orange'. Secondly, of course, Ponzu sauce isn't a glass of orange juice. Comparing the two is ridiculous.
  - ionised 9y ago
    You're right, with a steak I'd much prefer a strawberry milkshake. Certainly not wine.
- valesco 9y ago
  It is as if wine had certain qualities that made it special. Don't blind yourself to something very good known for a very, very long time just because you don't want to be associated with a certain social group.
  - Gargoyle 9y ago
    One of the biggest epiphanies I had in high school (a million years ago) was to not let their fans keep me away from the music of Led Zeppelin.
- kellyjprice 9y ago
  I think you're ignoring the additional complexity added by the fermentation. It's not fair to compare juice to a fermented juice. As I understand it, it is objectively more special than other fruit juices.
- cc81 9y ago
  If you go to a really fancy restaurant and buy their tasting menu they often have an alcohol free version instead of the wine package that often is a variation of juices and musts that is selected to pair well with the food. If you want to try it out sometime.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
  > Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. No, wine is a bit special here. It's somehow similar to cheese - there is a whole universe of tastes and subtastes based on many factors. You can of course ignore it completely and treat these foods like eggs (or put any other uniformly tasting kind of food here). That's perfectly fine. Or you can discover that there are so many flavors of cheese, with some of them particularly appealing to you - and just let yourself enjoy these. Of course there are snobs who make a show out of everything, but don't let that spoil the genuine joy of tasting some good wine (or any other food that may or may not be expensive at that moment).
  - xapata 9y ago
    Fermentation produces many things, but grown things also have great variety. Tomatoes, for example. Picked fresh, some have such intense flavor.
    - dom0 9y ago
      While the Dutch water to tomato conversion process surely made them cheap, it also means that many people never tasted a real tomato.
  - trentmb 9y ago
    Apples have quite a variety too.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    There are a couple hundred varieties of orange, and if you extend it to citrus more generally, there are thousands of varieties. Compare that to the varieties of grapes - there are certainly more strains of grapes in total (5k-10k), but if you restrict yourself to only wine grapes, they are of similar complexity, and the entire grape industry is based on Vitis Vinifera and Vitis Labrusca, whereas Citrus has at least 4 original species. And Citrus reacts just as well as Vitis Vinifera to terroir, as well - Citrus grown in volcanic soil vs limestone soil vs california loam has a distinctly different composition and flavor. You're going to have to face it, wine is special because humans have declared it special, not because it's not similar in complexity to dozens of other agricultural, natural, and fermented products :)
- tarsinge 9y ago
  > but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. > Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices A lot of people usually prefer to not have sweetness in their meal (at least where I live). Conversely I understand that people loving sweetness and not sour or bitter taste are perplexed by wine. > And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape. You are underplaying the effect of fermentation, like from milk to a strong blue cheese. But yes other fermented juices could be as interesting, for example I heard Americans were quite into hard cider ("apple wine") in the past
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. Well, other than the fact that, on top of its own particular taste characteristics, it's also a vehicle for a substance with is both a recreational drug and flavor enhancer, which certainly has an effect on experience when it is consumed that has nothing to do with social pretense. But ignoring that is a pretty big oversight.
- Erwin 9y ago
  Not 6 different orange juices, but pure juice pairings have become popular on top restaurants (e.g. the 3-star Geranium here in CPH, and Noma while it was open), similar to wine pairings. Those are thoughtfully developed mixes, so few if any just out of a bottle and typical pricing is half of a wine pairing (the wine pairing is normally the same as the tasting menu). I wouldn't personally swap a wine pairing for them -- if you think a full menu is too much, you can often get a half or share the wine menu between 2 people, even if the restaurant doesn't mention so. But it is an interesting alternative.
robbrown451 9y ago
I think you underestimate the role culture plays in preferences. I don't doubt you can "maximize the experience", but you can do that with lots of things, for a lot less money. I could obsess over the exact balance and handle shape of the mug I drink my morning coffee out of if I wanted, to give the maximum pleasurable feeling on my hand as I lift the cup to my lips.
- biot 9y ago
  I'm not a fan of "obligatory xkcd" references but this one is directly relevant and hits the nail on the head: https://www.xkcd.com/915/ https://www.xkcd.com/915/
  - robbrown451 9y ago
    Awesome.
- mannykannot 9y ago
  I think you are underestimating the role preference plays in preferences. We get it that you like wine mostly for the buzz, but it so happens that when people like it mainly for other aspects, they are not always faking it, and neither are they always posturing. When my wife and I enjoy a glass of wine at home, no-one else knows.
  - robbrown451 9y ago
    I think you are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It's like music... some genres of music are pretty unlikely that an individual would like except for the culture that surrounds them and promotes them. And yet, sure, those people that do like them, after being exposed to that culture, still probably listen to that music when no one is watching. I'm not suggesting that most people are consciously trying to impress people.
    - sanderjd 9y ago
      For what it's worth, this doesn't seem true to me for either wine or your analogy to music. People like different things.

jaggederest 9y ago

> wine goes really well with certain foods eaten in a certain order. > drinking and enjoying wine is not about some 'pretending to be wealthy' feeling. I'm pretty sure that these two statements are contradictory. Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that. And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape. Wine is treated differently precisely for the kind of reasons that you have to explicitly disclaim "pretending to be wealthy" as a motivation.

foldr 9y ago
Orange juice clearly doesn't go with food in the same way that wine does.
- delecti 9y ago
  As someone who enjoys orange juice and thinks more than 95% of wine tastes awful, I agree but probably in the opposite direction that you intended with your statement.
  - foldr 9y ago
    I enjoy orange juice too, but it doesn't go well with food.
    - kbutler 9y ago
      I'm with the grandparent on this one - I like OJ with various foods.
    - ionised 9y ago
      OJ goes great with my meals.
    - delecti 9y ago
      I'm astounded by how many comments in this thread state as absolutes things that are obviously personal preference. I have never in my life felt a meal was better because of the addition of wine, but I find orange juice to be a compliment to a meal on a regular basis.
doktrin 9y ago
> Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices? No, nobody ever does that. I love orange juice, but I don't want it with my steak.
- Radim 9y ago
  ...since we're trading anecdotes, I'd much prefer juice to wine with my steak. Although I typically go with my favourite drink of all -- plain water.
- greggman 9y ago
  Steak cooked with ponzu sauce is a amazing. Ponzu is a sauce made from citrus fruits. So yes, for some oranges and steak go together great.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    Ponzu sauce is made with a bitter citrus - much more 'lemon' than 'orange'. Secondly, of course, Ponzu sauce isn't a glass of orange juice. Comparing the two is ridiculous.
- ionised 9y ago
  You're right, with a steak I'd much prefer a strawberry milkshake. Certainly not wine.
valesco 9y ago
It is as if wine had certain qualities that made it special. Don't blind yourself to something very good known for a very, very long time just because you don't want to be associated with a certain social group.
- Gargoyle 9y ago
  One of the biggest epiphanies I had in high school (a million years ago) was to not let their fans keep me away from the music of Led Zeppelin.
kellyjprice 9y ago
I think you're ignoring the additional complexity added by the fermentation. It's not fair to compare juice to a fermented juice. As I understand it, it is objectively more special than other fruit juices.
cc81 9y ago
If you go to a really fancy restaurant and buy their tasting menu they often have an alcohol free version instead of the wine package that often is a variation of juices and musts that is selected to pair well with the food. If you want to try it out sometime.
dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
> Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. No, wine is a bit special here. It's somehow similar to cheese - there is a whole universe of tastes and subtastes based on many factors. You can of course ignore it completely and treat these foods like eggs (or put any other uniformly tasting kind of food here). That's perfectly fine. Or you can discover that there are so many flavors of cheese, with some of them particularly appealing to you - and just let yourself enjoy these. Of course there are snobs who make a show out of everything, but don't let that spoil the genuine joy of tasting some good wine (or any other food that may or may not be expensive at that moment).
- xapata 9y ago
  Fermentation produces many things, but grown things also have great variety. Tomatoes, for example. Picked fresh, some have such intense flavor.
  - dom0 9y ago
    While the Dutch water to tomato conversion process surely made them cheap, it also means that many people never tasted a real tomato.
- trentmb 9y ago
  Apples have quite a variety too.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  There are a couple hundred varieties of orange, and if you extend it to citrus more generally, there are thousands of varieties. Compare that to the varieties of grapes - there are certainly more strains of grapes in total (5k-10k), but if you restrict yourself to only wine grapes, they are of similar complexity, and the entire grape industry is based on Vitis Vinifera and Vitis Labrusca, whereas Citrus has at least 4 original species. And Citrus reacts just as well as Vitis Vinifera to terroir, as well - Citrus grown in volcanic soil vs limestone soil vs california loam has a distinctly different composition and flavor. You're going to have to face it, wine is special because humans have declared it special, not because it's not similar in complexity to dozens of other agricultural, natural, and fermented products :)
tarsinge 9y ago
> but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. > Do you maximize the experience of a fine meal with a flight of six different orange juices A lot of people usually prefer to not have sweetness in their meal (at least where I live). Conversely I understand that people loving sweetness and not sour or bitter taste are perplexed by wine. > And yet there is certainly as much variation in citrus juice as there is in grape. You are underplaying the effect of fermentation, like from milk to a strong blue cheese. But yes other fermented juices could be as interesting, for example I heard Americans were quite into hard cider ("apple wine") in the past
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Wine tastes good, and it tastes good with other things, but in no way more special than say, other fruit juices or beverages. Well, other than the fact that, on top of its own particular taste characteristics, it's also a vehicle for a substance with is both a recreational drug and flavor enhancer, which certainly has an effect on experience when it is consumed that has nothing to do with social pretense. But ignoring that is a pretty big oversight.
Erwin 9y ago
Not 6 different orange juices, but pure juice pairings have become popular on top restaurants (e.g. the 3-star Geranium here in CPH, and Noma while it was open), similar to wine pairings. Those are thoughtfully developed mixes, so few if any just out of a bottle and typical pricing is half of a wine pairing (the wine pairing is normally the same as the tasting menu). I wouldn't personally swap a wine pairing for them -- if you think a full menu is too much, you can often get a half or share the wine menu between 2 people, even if the restaurant doesn't mention so. But it is an interesting alternative.

robbrown451 9y ago

I think you underestimate the role culture plays in preferences. I don't doubt you can "maximize the experience", but you can do that with lots of things, for a lot less money. I could obsess over the exact balance and handle shape of the mug I drink my morning coffee out of if I wanted, to give the maximum pleasurable feeling on my hand as I lift the cup to my lips.

biot 9y ago
I'm not a fan of "obligatory xkcd" references but this one is directly relevant and hits the nail on the head: https://www.xkcd.com/915/ https://www.xkcd.com/915/
- robbrown451 9y ago
  Awesome.
mannykannot 9y ago
I think you are underestimating the role preference plays in preferences. We get it that you like wine mostly for the buzz, but it so happens that when people like it mainly for other aspects, they are not always faking it, and neither are they always posturing. When my wife and I enjoy a glass of wine at home, no-one else knows.
- robbrown451 9y ago
  I think you are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It's like music... some genres of music are pretty unlikely that an individual would like except for the culture that surrounds them and promotes them. And yet, sure, those people that do like them, after being exposed to that culture, still probably listen to that music when no one is watching. I'm not suggesting that most people are consciously trying to impress people.
  - sanderjd 9y ago
    For what it's worth, this doesn't seem true to me for either wine or your analogy to music. People like different things.