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> Could psychedelic drug ayahuasca have health benefits? Certainly, anecdotally I kicked a very strong 20 year coffee and sugar habit after doing a 3-day retre

> Could psychedelic drug ayahuasca have health benefits? Certainly, anecdotally I kicked a very strong 20 year coffee and sugar habit after doing a 3-day retreat in Latin America this past winter. Just happened naturally, oh, I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore. On the flip side, as the article mentions, the psychedlic tourism industry as a whole doesn't have formal safe guards in place for when the shit hits the fan with one (or more) of the attendees. My friend, who sat all eleven days, said that two women just completely lost it on day 3, screaming hysterically, out of their minds battling unknown demons. The retreat "helpers", do the best they can to settle you down, but when you're deep in the experience it's very hard to distinguish between real/unreal. For example, in some kind of existential moment I shouted out in my mind's eye, "you are the most high!". In reality I shocked the 30 other attendants out of their seats, and a helper rushed up to see if I was Ok. It's an extremely powerful substance. At the end of the retreat, when everyone headed off to sleep, I was still tripping so hard that sleep was impossible. When I finally lay down the sheer flow of non-stop Dali/Escher-like hallucinations running through my mind were sufficient to make me question whether I was ever going to return to reality -- Pandora's box indeed. tl;dr; proceed with caution, can have beneficial side-effects.

hal9000xp 9y ago
> I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore. In the same way, some people just stop being "addicted" to life in general after strong trip. Some of them decide to commit suicide. Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip. The big problem with psychedelics is that you can't predict in which way a trip could change you.
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Yea, in simple terms it has a multiplier effect on everything you experience. If feelings go bad, they can go really bad and remain that way afterwards. But you commented on suicide. I also have a friend who unfortunately passed this way. Do you have any data on this? From what I have seen, studies have been limited. I had read somewhere on erowid years ago a study where an increase in mental illness and suicide after psychadelic use was positive but less than an increase seen in another study of people who had completed religious quests.
- fjsh 9y ago
  Which drug? Context matters. Salvia can be a very negative experience and has allegedly caused suicides. DMT is almost a universally euphoric and positive experience although not Ayahausca. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide after either. The big problem with psychedelics is how people spread fear and uncertainty. Try sharing the death statistics for alcohol the next time you share a bottle of wine with a romantic interest.
  - ci5er 9y ago
    Salvia is, for me, is quite rough. But I can't imagine it causing suicide. What's the progression/causation there? Or do we just not have enough data to know?
    - dannypgh 9y ago
      It would likely be quite difficult to ethically do such a study. Correlation alone isn't compelling: it could simply be that the underlying reason a significant share of people turn to [insert mind-altering substance here] is underlying emotional suffering, trauma, etc. and if the substance doesn't offer any improvement they end up resorting to suicide.
      - ci5er 9y ago
        Maybe. But based on the 3rd-hand reports I have read (the suicide can't/doesn't report), the self-kill-decision seems more immediate than the realization that the efficacy of the substance wasn't, you know, efficacious.
  - tree_of_item 9y ago
    If salvia is very negative for you then you're doing too much. Sadly most people use salvia "extracts" which are almost guaranteed to be far too much to handle. Stick with plain leaf.
- hutzlibu 9y ago
  "Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip." unpleasant theory: maybe in some cases it is even better, that a person just kills himself after a drug-triggered insight - instead of years of drowning everybody around them into their black hole - and still suicide in the end. (or worse, go amok) But sure, I am not saying at all, that this was the case in your story. What I know is, that Psychedelics are no miracles. The "insights" you get, might be also totally wrong and misleading. I see Drugs as "tools" for the mind. You can use them right, or wrong.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - hhhxyxyy 9y ago
    The main insight is more likely that people like you exist, with your immature attitude/ridiculous theory on suicide. I find your kind to be subtly destructive and all too common. Take care and aloha.
    - hutzlibu 9y ago
      Those are very good arguments you provide ... It is probably pointless, but to try more arguments, I think the same about you " I find your kind to be subtly destructive and all too common" The illusionary theory, that every human must be saved at all costs. Only that in reality "by all costs" means very often, that not only one goes down, but also many people around them. I have seen it too often. And in the end, those persons might indeed still breathe, but more like zombies and not really alive . Letting go can be less cruel in the bigger picture.
      - hhhxyxyy 9y ago
        Do you actually have experience with counterculture? Primal instincts based around the idea of dominance prevail as often do in any social hierarchy, and the musings about some type of altruistism surrounding suicide by the commenter to whom I replied reflect this reality. In short, the counterculture movement is plenty infiltrated with immature and often sociopathic mentalities that heartlessly harass sensitive folks who are at their most vulnerable under the influence of psychedelics. This is rarely discussed but is so prevalent, particularly since the age of exposure aligns with immature phases, adolesence in particular. In laymen’s terms, it’s a sport to “fuck with” someone who has a “reaction”. Perhaps it’s the suicide victim realizing that, instead of this idea that they are a defective burden saving society from their own black hole via premature self termination, that they are escaping unwanted membership of a vastly primitive species. I assure you, the mentality of the suicidal is quite the opposite of “conventional wisdom” about being a burden, at least in some cases.
andai 9y ago
<anecdotal> Can confirm, addictions to sugar, caffeine, alcohol and cannabis evaporated during my trip and did not return for many weeks. I had never felt so peaceful and balanced in my life. Whereas previously I was trying to escape chaos with substances, now consuming substances would only serve unbalance me. I felt like, wow, this is what a human being is supposed to feel like! When you face what is within you, and process it, it no longer burdens you. Psychedelics seem to facilitate this process. </anecdotal>
- odammit 9y ago
  This is interesting. I only know one person that’s done it and he said the same thing. Kicked all the habits. I didn’t know him before his trip so I assumed he was kind of full of it. Based on my escalating coffee bill maybe I should give this a swing... So are the hallucinations ever “fun”? I’ve dabbled in other things and it has generally been very video game like kidjoy. All ayahuasca hallucinations I’ve read about have sounded terrifying.
  - jdavis703 9y ago
    Caffeine pills are pretty cheap. Switching to them has saved me a ton, and now that lattes are a once-a-week treat I enjoy them more.
  - KennyCason 9y ago
    I'm going to try very hard to describe this. It will not be enough :) It's more than "fun", much more profound, it's Everything, perhaps the single most important thing. It's ineffable, yet, you still feel obligated to try and explain it, as I'm doing. You may experience total happiness, love, wholeness, but then seconds later experience the exact opposite, total depression, despair, loneliness, humiliation, fear, violence. You may experience a plane of existence where you ARE time, and you see how time affects everything at once, as a result, it's a feeling of timelessness, you can see everything happening, a feeling of eternal existence. Perhaps you will then see that the same way events are connected together to form the feeling of time, in fact, everything you know is connected together in your brain, you can move through any of the connections, not just temporal. You may experience realities similar to your own, perhaps many at once, but you may also be catapulted into a completely geometric and abstract universe of inexplicable nature, but you'll feel as if you understand it, as long as you don't try and describe it in language. You may "see" the fundamental structure of sound and music as your various neural compartments cross-fire and visual cortex processes sound or sound cortex process visual data. You may "see" sexuality. You may see good and evil and the necessary duality of the two. For that matter you may see the dualistic relationship of everything. Everything exists because defining non-existence commands the definition of existence. You may see the fundamental feedback loop where perception meets the internal mental model your brain builds to interpret reality. Wait? feedback loop? You don't even know which side is real, cause-effect is completely broken down, it's now a Strange Loop. You may then see, truly see, that your whole entire known reality, including everything you see and perceive to be "outside" of your body is all actually inside your brain. You're trapped, this is your reality. You will likely discover/meet your inner self, you will realize that the consciousness really is the tip of the iceberg as you get rocketed inward into your deep sub consciousness, which has a mind of it's own. Also, for me, it knew everything I was thinking in advance. So when I'd make a joke or expression it would react with "why are you responding to me, I'm the one that told you what you think", so you learn to just shut up and enjoy the ride. It will likely be so beautiful and significant that you may even question if what you experienced was a divine experience. It will be so intense that you will have had a glimpse as to what a super consciousness or hyper-intelligence may look like, as you become even more aware of how small your conscious mind really is in comparison to the whole. You may feel as if all, everything, every person is connected. For example, the knowledge of good vs evil, and the gradient between, and hot and cold, and temperatures between, are these really different things? After all, in your brain they are both represented as neural connections, a graph if you will. And is it just the interpretation of the neural pattern that gives them meaning? The brain just being a massive network of brain cells, where the fundamental unit is a connection, you may realize, no wonder the foundation of human reasoning is also limited to the notion of stateful logic. Perhaps, after 10 hours of this, you start to want to come back to reality, but you learned something very important this day. You can't go back, you don't, part of you has transcended to Buddha-hood. But you're a stubborn human, you fight to come back, that fighting, rooted in fear, fear is linked to many other negative memories, they may take command of your brain. Have you went crazy? Did you just forgo your conscious existence as you knew it? Then you're sitting there, watching yourself in a mental institution as your family is there crying wondering what happened to you, but communication with them is futile as you have transcended, but part of you, is stuck in that body, for 50 years as you've realized that this infinite experience is just a bit more than you asked for. But that's just one of the many negative things you dream up! Of course, acid is illegal where you lived, so that random sound is the cops showing up and escorting you out. Or perhaps you wake up naked and vulnerable outside, but it's just a trip, as you rock back and forth between the meta-mind-space and all these false realities. (a process called "looping") You face all your fears and inner personal problems, you confront your selfish ego, and all the negative things about yourself, you're embarrassed of yourself as your mind is nakedly exposed. Just as you got to see all the beauty of nature, you also realize how messed up you and everything is. It's hard, very hard, but you face it and accept it. This is what some people call a "bad trip", but to me, that is precisely what made it a "good trip". You eventually grab on to pieces of reality, one at a time, until you finally come all the way back. It takes many hours, and days to process everything. You're never really sure if you ever came back. But you don't mind. You've experienced enlightenment. You're at peace with yourself and the universe, if there's even a difference. You have a new appreciation for everything. But similarly, you also realize the empty, void of meaning nature of the universe. For some people this is all too much. For me, this was the ultimate lens into "reality", and gave me a new spark and energy for life that is unparalleled to any previous experience. A small side note: This feels very great to have finally shared. It has been melting inside me to get out.
SwellJoe 9y ago
"Certainly, anecdotally I kicked a very strong 20 year coffee and sugar habit after doing a 3-day retreat in Latin America this past winter. Just happened naturally, oh, I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore." Isn't three days about how long it takes to get over caffeine withdrawal symptoms, regardless of whether one has retreated to Latin America and taken psychedelic drugs?
- borski 9y ago
  That's the peak. It can last about a week.
  - SwellJoe 9y ago
    Is there reason to believe ayahuasca shortens that period?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

hal9000xp 9y ago

> I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore. In the same way, some people just stop being "addicted" to life in general after strong trip. Some of them decide to commit suicide. Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip. The big problem with psychedelics is that you can't predict in which way a trip could change you.

wallace_f 9y ago
Yea, in simple terms it has a multiplier effect on everything you experience. If feelings go bad, they can go really bad and remain that way afterwards. But you commented on suicide. I also have a friend who unfortunately passed this way. Do you have any data on this? From what I have seen, studies have been limited. I had read somewhere on erowid years ago a study where an increase in mental illness and suicide after psychadelic use was positive but less than an increase seen in another study of people who had completed religious quests.
fjsh 9y ago
Which drug? Context matters. Salvia can be a very negative experience and has allegedly caused suicides. DMT is almost a universally euphoric and positive experience although not Ayahausca. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide after either. The big problem with psychedelics is how people spread fear and uncertainty. Try sharing the death statistics for alcohol the next time you share a bottle of wine with a romantic interest.
- ci5er 9y ago
  Salvia is, for me, is quite rough. But I can't imagine it causing suicide. What's the progression/causation there? Or do we just not have enough data to know?
  - dannypgh 9y ago
    It would likely be quite difficult to ethically do such a study. Correlation alone isn't compelling: it could simply be that the underlying reason a significant share of people turn to [insert mind-altering substance here] is underlying emotional suffering, trauma, etc. and if the substance doesn't offer any improvement they end up resorting to suicide.
    - ci5er 9y ago
      Maybe. But based on the 3rd-hand reports I have read (the suicide can't/doesn't report), the self-kill-decision seems more immediate than the realization that the efficacy of the substance wasn't, you know, efficacious.
- tree_of_item 9y ago
  If salvia is very negative for you then you're doing too much. Sadly most people use salvia "extracts" which are almost guaranteed to be far too much to handle. Stick with plain leaf.
hutzlibu 9y ago
"Just yesterday, I've been in party and one guy told story of his friend who committed suicide after such trip." unpleasant theory: maybe in some cases it is even better, that a person just kills himself after a drug-triggered insight - instead of years of drowning everybody around them into their black hole - and still suicide in the end. (or worse, go amok) But sure, I am not saying at all, that this was the case in your story. What I know is, that Psychedelics are no miracles. The "insights" you get, might be also totally wrong and misleading. I see Drugs as "tools" for the mind. You can use them right, or wrong.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- hhhxyxyy 9y ago
  The main insight is more likely that people like you exist, with your immature attitude/ridiculous theory on suicide. I find your kind to be subtly destructive and all too common. Take care and aloha.
  - hutzlibu 9y ago
    Those are very good arguments you provide ... It is probably pointless, but to try more arguments, I think the same about you " I find your kind to be subtly destructive and all too common" The illusionary theory, that every human must be saved at all costs. Only that in reality "by all costs" means very often, that not only one goes down, but also many people around them. I have seen it too often. And in the end, those persons might indeed still breathe, but more like zombies and not really alive . Letting go can be less cruel in the bigger picture.
    - hhhxyxyy 9y ago
      Do you actually have experience with counterculture? Primal instincts based around the idea of dominance prevail as often do in any social hierarchy, and the musings about some type of altruistism surrounding suicide by the commenter to whom I replied reflect this reality. In short, the counterculture movement is plenty infiltrated with immature and often sociopathic mentalities that heartlessly harass sensitive folks who are at their most vulnerable under the influence of psychedelics. This is rarely discussed but is so prevalent, particularly since the age of exposure aligns with immature phases, adolesence in particular. In laymen’s terms, it’s a sport to “fuck with” someone who has a “reaction”. Perhaps it’s the suicide victim realizing that, instead of this idea that they are a defective burden saving society from their own black hole via premature self termination, that they are escaping unwanted membership of a vastly primitive species. I assure you, the mentality of the suicidal is quite the opposite of “conventional wisdom” about being a burden, at least in some cases.

andai 9y ago

<anecdotal> Can confirm, addictions to sugar, caffeine, alcohol and cannabis evaporated during my trip and did not return for many weeks. I had never felt so peaceful and balanced in my life. Whereas previously I was trying to escape chaos with substances, now consuming substances would only serve unbalance me. I felt like, wow, this is what a human being is supposed to feel like! When you face what is within you, and process it, it no longer burdens you. Psychedelics seem to facilitate this process. </anecdotal>

odammit 9y ago
This is interesting. I only know one person that’s done it and he said the same thing. Kicked all the habits. I didn’t know him before his trip so I assumed he was kind of full of it. Based on my escalating coffee bill maybe I should give this a swing... So are the hallucinations ever “fun”? I’ve dabbled in other things and it has generally been very video game like kidjoy. All ayahuasca hallucinations I’ve read about have sounded terrifying.
- jdavis703 9y ago
  Caffeine pills are pretty cheap. Switching to them has saved me a ton, and now that lattes are a once-a-week treat I enjoy them more.
- KennyCason 9y ago
  I'm going to try very hard to describe this. It will not be enough :) It's more than "fun", much more profound, it's Everything, perhaps the single most important thing. It's ineffable, yet, you still feel obligated to try and explain it, as I'm doing. You may experience total happiness, love, wholeness, but then seconds later experience the exact opposite, total depression, despair, loneliness, humiliation, fear, violence. You may experience a plane of existence where you ARE time, and you see how time affects everything at once, as a result, it's a feeling of timelessness, you can see everything happening, a feeling of eternal existence. Perhaps you will then see that the same way events are connected together to form the feeling of time, in fact, everything you know is connected together in your brain, you can move through any of the connections, not just temporal. You may experience realities similar to your own, perhaps many at once, but you may also be catapulted into a completely geometric and abstract universe of inexplicable nature, but you'll feel as if you understand it, as long as you don't try and describe it in language. You may "see" the fundamental structure of sound and music as your various neural compartments cross-fire and visual cortex processes sound or sound cortex process visual data. You may "see" sexuality. You may see good and evil and the necessary duality of the two. For that matter you may see the dualistic relationship of everything. Everything exists because defining non-existence commands the definition of existence. You may see the fundamental feedback loop where perception meets the internal mental model your brain builds to interpret reality. Wait? feedback loop? You don't even know which side is real, cause-effect is completely broken down, it's now a Strange Loop. You may then see, truly see, that your whole entire known reality, including everything you see and perceive to be "outside" of your body is all actually inside your brain. You're trapped, this is your reality. You will likely discover/meet your inner self, you will realize that the consciousness really is the tip of the iceberg as you get rocketed inward into your deep sub consciousness, which has a mind of it's own. Also, for me, it knew everything I was thinking in advance. So when I'd make a joke or expression it would react with "why are you responding to me, I'm the one that told you what you think", so you learn to just shut up and enjoy the ride. It will likely be so beautiful and significant that you may even question if what you experienced was a divine experience. It will be so intense that you will have had a glimpse as to what a super consciousness or hyper-intelligence may look like, as you become even more aware of how small your conscious mind really is in comparison to the whole. You may feel as if all, everything, every person is connected. For example, the knowledge of good vs evil, and the gradient between, and hot and cold, and temperatures between, are these really different things? After all, in your brain they are both represented as neural connections, a graph if you will. And is it just the interpretation of the neural pattern that gives them meaning? The brain just being a massive network of brain cells, where the fundamental unit is a connection, you may realize, no wonder the foundation of human reasoning is also limited to the notion of stateful logic. Perhaps, after 10 hours of this, you start to want to come back to reality, but you learned something very important this day. You can't go back, you don't, part of you has transcended to Buddha-hood. But you're a stubborn human, you fight to come back, that fighting, rooted in fear, fear is linked to many other negative memories, they may take command of your brain. Have you went crazy? Did you just forgo your conscious existence as you knew it? Then you're sitting there, watching yourself in a mental institution as your family is there crying wondering what happened to you, but communication with them is futile as you have transcended, but part of you, is stuck in that body, for 50 years as you've realized that this infinite experience is just a bit more than you asked for. But that's just one of the many negative things you dream up! Of course, acid is illegal where you lived, so that random sound is the cops showing up and escorting you out. Or perhaps you wake up naked and vulnerable outside, but it's just a trip, as you rock back and forth between the meta-mind-space and all these false realities. (a process called "looping") You face all your fears and inner personal problems, you confront your selfish ego, and all the negative things about yourself, you're embarrassed of yourself as your mind is nakedly exposed. Just as you got to see all the beauty of nature, you also realize how messed up you and everything is. It's hard, very hard, but you face it and accept it. This is what some people call a "bad trip", but to me, that is precisely what made it a "good trip". You eventually grab on to pieces of reality, one at a time, until you finally come all the way back. It takes many hours, and days to process everything. You're never really sure if you ever came back. But you don't mind. You've experienced enlightenment. You're at peace with yourself and the universe, if there's even a difference. You have a new appreciation for everything. But similarly, you also realize the empty, void of meaning nature of the universe. For some people this is all too much. For me, this was the ultimate lens into "reality", and gave me a new spark and energy for life that is unparalleled to any previous experience. A small side note: This feels very great to have finally shared. It has been melting inside me to get out.

SwellJoe 9y ago

"Certainly, anecdotally I kicked a very strong 20 year coffee and sugar habit after doing a 3-day retreat in Latin America this past winter. Just happened naturally, oh, I don't need this daily coffee and sugar fix anymore." Isn't three days about how long it takes to get over caffeine withdrawal symptoms, regardless of whether one has retreated to Latin America and taken psychedelic drugs?

borski 9y ago
That's the peak. It can last about a week.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  Is there reason to believe ayahuasca shortens that period?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]