4 ms·

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Euro

by dgut 9y ago

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't going to split and we aren't going to allow tribalists/nationalists to act freely. They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. Having lived in Spain for some time, I can say police there is awesome. That is, friendly and laid back. Once I was caught smoking marijuana in my apartment (the neighbors called the police because of the loud music) and they made a couple of jokes and left. Back in Norway, they'd be angry & taken me to the police station.

msh 9y ago
So Norway should have remained a part of Sweden and not allowed to gain independence?
- dgut 9y ago
  As mentioned before, completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not, and the foundations a lot shakier.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - msh 9y ago
    Why are the foundations shakier?
    - dgut 9y ago
      Separate armies, laws, currency, un-democratic state, considerably shorter time period, a national id (Catalonia has never been a state before).
      - msh 9y ago
        Catalonia have been a state. According to Wikipedia it was last a state in 1659, Norway was not a independent state between 1537 and 1905 so I don't think the time period are that dissimilar. Spain was also not Democratic until less than 50 years ago.
        dgut 9y ago
        No, it was not. It was a default French protectorate for a brief period of time.
adambyrtek 9y ago
Not sure what your anecdotal story was supposed to prove, but marijuana is legal for personal use in Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Spain
gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.
- dgut 9y ago
  That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.
  - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
    Hence the Catalan's are attempting democratic means...
  - yxhuvud 9y ago
    Depends on where you draw the line of what is a democracy. Sweden was certainly on the way towards it. There were elections and the parliament was pretty powerful (though less powerful than today. But that change happened in '72, and you'd be hard pressed to claim Sweden wasn't democratic before that). Votes were still weighted towards the rich, and women couldn't normally vote yet, though.
  - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
    Norway came to be controlled by Denmark then Sweden by the same type of historic accident as the Catalans by Spain. Norway was lucky enough to take the chance at independence 100 years ago. Why should the Catalans not have the same opportunity to control their own future if they do wish?
    - dgut 9y ago
      Apples and oranges. Norway (a composite of smaller kingdoms) was a "nation" prior to that, Catalonia has never been a nation. Norway-Denmark were a voluntary real union, and Norway-Sweden a forced personal union. Barcelona did conquer the areas around itself (Catalonia) and later merged through marriage with Aragon, becoming essentially the greater Crown of Aragon (Aragon+Catalonia). Then merged with Castille through marriage and whatnot. Where are we going to draw the lines, and at what point in history do we conclude the Spanish indeed conquered Catalonia? The formation of the modern European states are fussy, but the current nationalist narratives are built on very thin air.
olegkikin 9y ago
Catalonia is not a tribe. It's 7.5 million people. Which is orders of magnitude more than the Vatican, for instance. It's more people than the population of Denmark, Finland, Ireland, and many other EU countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics
- dgut 9y ago
  The nationalist narrative is tribal though, they do consider themselves a separate ethnicity.
  - olegkikin 9y ago
    Who is "they" exactly? We're talking about millions of people. I'm pretty sure there's a wide spectrum of reasons and opinions.
kristiandupont 9y ago
>They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. Seriously?! They're not nerf guns, the mossos were banned from using them a couple of years ago, with good reason! I am a fellow Scandinavian who lived in Barcelona and though I am not at all sure that I think independence is a good idea, I think the catalans should be the ones to decide that and the Spanish reaction to the vote is absolutely outrageous to me. They could have declared it illegal, and the outcome invalid. This treatment of peaceful protesters is ridiculous.
- dgut 9y ago
  It's proportional. What are they supposed to use, water balloons? The naive support for Catalonian nationalists on this site is not surprising, though.
  - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
    Words and votes - that is what we use in the UK to handle the issue of Scottish independence. It has proved much better than guns (c/f Scotland and the troubles in Northern Ireland). The Spanish police have gone in using force to prevent a democractic process.
    - dgut 9y ago
      Afaik the Catalonian separatist movement is a lot larger than the Scottish one, fueled by the last financial crisis. I strongly doubt the UK can claim moral superiority above Spain.
      - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
        The Scottish and Catalan separatist movements were actually very similar until yesterday. Both have so far choosen the democratic route to freedom. In both nations the support for independence was under 50% but the support for a referendum to decide the issue was very high. The fact that the Spanish state used illegal force (some of the police used had no legal basis to enter Catalonia and the use of rubber bullets by police is not allowed within Catalonia) to break up a democractic vote will presumably cause the two movements to diverge now. Btw no one is claiming moral superiority - merely experience. The UK has a long history of suppressing independence movements by force and this failing. With Scotland they finally tried another approach and it seems to work better so far..
Tech-Noir 9y ago
> there wouldn't be much left of Europe Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Independence for smaller states - ie, taking back control and power from a greater/globalist state - would, if anything, make Europe (people and culture) more European again. > They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. So people are wrong to suggest the maiming and potential killing of civilians by police is a crime against humanity, but it's reasonable for you to claim the police are "awesome" based on a couple of them sharing a joke with you once, when you were high?
- dgut 9y ago
  > Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. > maiming and potential killing of civilians by police How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential killing of civilians"? Stop exaggerating the story to fit your personal views.
  - Tech-Noir 9y ago
    > Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you - how does it back up your claim that there wouldn't be much left of Europe if Europeans had more control over their own local affairs? > How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential killing of civilians"? Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea.
    - dgut 9y ago
      > Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you. History is not your strong side then, I guess. > Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea. Rubber bullets are nonlethal and not meant to cause serious injuries or death unless of course misused at very close range. Participating in an illegal uprising isn't going to be consequence-free.

by dgut 9y ago

msh 9y ago

So Norway should have remained a part of Sweden and not allowed to gain independence?

dgut 9y ago
As mentioned before, completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not, and the foundations a lot shakier.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- msh 9y ago
  Why are the foundations shakier?
  - dgut 9y ago
    Separate armies, laws, currency, un-democratic state, considerably shorter time period, a national id (Catalonia has never been a state before).
    - msh 9y ago
      Catalonia have been a state. According to Wikipedia it was last a state in 1659, Norway was not a independent state between 1537 and 1905 so I don't think the time period are that dissimilar. Spain was also not Democratic until less than 50 years ago.
      - dgut 9y ago
        No, it was not. It was a default French protectorate for a brief period of time.

adambyrtek 9y ago

Not sure what your anecdotal story was supposed to prove, but marijuana is legal for personal use in Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Spain

gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago

Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.

dgut 9y ago
That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.
- gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
  Hence the Catalan's are attempting democratic means...
- yxhuvud 9y ago
  Depends on where you draw the line of what is a democracy. Sweden was certainly on the way towards it. There were elections and the parliament was pretty powerful (though less powerful than today. But that change happened in '72, and you'd be hard pressed to claim Sweden wasn't democratic before that). Votes were still weighted towards the rich, and women couldn't normally vote yet, though.
- gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
  Norway came to be controlled by Denmark then Sweden by the same type of historic accident as the Catalans by Spain. Norway was lucky enough to take the chance at independence 100 years ago. Why should the Catalans not have the same opportunity to control their own future if they do wish?
  - dgut 9y ago
    Apples and oranges. Norway (a composite of smaller kingdoms) was a "nation" prior to that, Catalonia has never been a nation. Norway-Denmark were a voluntary real union, and Norway-Sweden a forced personal union. Barcelona did conquer the areas around itself (Catalonia) and later merged through marriage with Aragon, becoming essentially the greater Crown of Aragon (Aragon+Catalonia). Then merged with Castille through marriage and whatnot. Where are we going to draw the lines, and at what point in history do we conclude the Spanish indeed conquered Catalonia? The formation of the modern European states are fussy, but the current nationalist narratives are built on very thin air.

olegkikin 9y ago

Catalonia is not a tribe. It's 7.5 million people. Which is orders of magnitude more than the Vatican, for instance. It's more people than the population of Denmark, Finland, Ireland, and many other EU countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statistics

dgut 9y ago
The nationalist narrative is tribal though, they do consider themselves a separate ethnicity.
- olegkikin 9y ago
  Who is "they" exactly? We're talking about millions of people. I'm pretty sure there's a wide spectrum of reasons and opinions.

kristiandupont 9y ago

>They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. Seriously?! They're not nerf guns, the mossos were banned from using them a couple of years ago, with good reason! I am a fellow Scandinavian who lived in Barcelona and though I am not at all sure that I think independence is a good idea, I think the catalans should be the ones to decide that and the Spanish reaction to the vote is absolutely outrageous to me. They could have declared it illegal, and the outcome invalid. This treatment of peaceful protesters is ridiculous.

dgut 9y ago
It's proportional. What are they supposed to use, water balloons? The naive support for Catalonian nationalists on this site is not surprising, though.
- gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
  Words and votes - that is what we use in the UK to handle the issue of Scottish independence. It has proved much better than guns (c/f Scotland and the troubles in Northern Ireland). The Spanish police have gone in using force to prevent a democractic process.
  - dgut 9y ago
    Afaik the Catalonian separatist movement is a lot larger than the Scottish one, fueled by the last financial crisis. I strongly doubt the UK can claim moral superiority above Spain.
    - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
      The Scottish and Catalan separatist movements were actually very similar until yesterday. Both have so far choosen the democratic route to freedom. In both nations the support for independence was under 50% but the support for a referendum to decide the issue was very high. The fact that the Spanish state used illegal force (some of the police used had no legal basis to enter Catalonia and the use of rubber bullets by police is not allowed within Catalonia) to break up a democractic vote will presumably cause the two movements to diverge now. Btw no one is claiming moral superiority - merely experience. The UK has a long history of suppressing independence movements by force and this failing. With Scotland they finally tried another approach and it seems to work better so far..

Tech-Noir 9y ago

> there wouldn't be much left of Europe Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Independence for smaller states - ie, taking back control and power from a greater/globalist state - would, if anything, make Europe (people and culture) more European again. > They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. So people are wrong to suggest the maiming and potential killing of civilians by police is a crime against humanity, but it's reasonable for you to claim the police are "awesome" based on a couple of them sharing a joke with you once, when you were high?

dgut 9y ago
> Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state. Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. > maiming and potential killing of civilians by police How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential killing of civilians"? Stop exaggerating the story to fit your personal views.
- Tech-Noir 9y ago
  > Europe, as we know it, is a set of "large" nation-states that made enormous contributions to humankind. These contributions wouldn't have been possible if Europe was a number of small fragmented states with their own languages and customs. Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you - how does it back up your claim that there wouldn't be much left of Europe if Europeans had more control over their own local affairs? > How do you equal shooting rubber bullets to "potential killing of civilians"? Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea.
  - dgut 9y ago
    > Even if that were true - and I don't see any evidence from you. History is not your strong side then, I guess. > Because I know what rubber bullets are, and what they can do. Whereas you appear to have no idea. Rubber bullets are nonlethal and not meant to cause serious injuries or death unless of course misused at very close range. Participating in an illegal uprising isn't going to be consequence-free.