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Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid; - mandates the involvement of all provinces and First Nations in negotiations following a vote in favour of secession; - and stipulates that secession, if it proceeds, would require an amendment to the constitution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

ritchiea 9y ago
I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent. Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't have leverage with Catalonia.
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  Spain definitely would have leverage with Catalonia if it acts (acted?) in a responsible and sane manner -- Catalonia's economy would take a huge hit if it doesn't achieve international recognition or EU membership, and Spain can influence that quite a bit.
- VHRanger 9y ago
  A quick googling would show you Quebec is also 20% of Canadian GDP and 15% of Canadian population. Quebec moreover cuts off maritime provinces from the rest of Canada
- slededit 9y ago
  At the time of the referendum Quebec was subsidizing the rest of Canada through equalization payments. More recently they've been on the receiving end but that has not been true for most of its history.
notspanishflu 9y ago
The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.
- techas 9y ago
  Why? I don't follow your idea. Could you explain?
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    What part you don't understand? I'll try again. All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.
    - breischl 9y ago
      That is not clearer, at least to me. >All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards. This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?
      - notspanishflu 9y ago
        All Spaniards have the right, not only a part of Spaniards (like those living in Catalonia).
        Mithaldu 9y ago
        You're advocating making the people in Catalonia prisoners to the rest of Spain.
        dogma1138 9y ago
        It's like saying that the Welsh should have a right to vote on the independence of Scotland.
fauigerzigerk 9y ago
The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote. There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole. For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to secede was a simple majority of people who currently have a London postcode.
- mo_po 9y ago
  As a catalan, I have to say that I don't care if we pay more taxes. What I find annoying is that PP, party that uses hate against catalans to win votes and has corruption rooted and proved since it's foundation, keeps raising election after election. The economical matter by itself is just a selfish argument that I don't share. I care for fighting corruption and for not being treated as a second class citizen because I was taught two languages in my childhood. Lies are spread constantly about how non-catalans are mistreated and nobody seems to care that there is no proof supporting that. Please, stop saying it is a money related problem.
  - dgut 9y ago
    Catalonia has no better corruption track record than the rest of Spain. Basically what you are saying is that you don't like the majority party, and therefore want to form your own nation. That's not how democracy works. Catalonia already enjoys a strong autonomy status, stronger than any other region of Spain and arguably stronger than any other region of Europe. I agree PP isn't optimal, but I fail to see any real alternative coming from Catalonia or the entire region that is Spain.
  - fauigerzigerk 9y ago
    I believe you when you say it's not about money for you. That doesn't mean it's not for many others. However, my concern is more about the principle of the right to secede.

ritchiea 9y ago

I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent. Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't have leverage with Catalonia.

smallnamespace 9y ago
Spain definitely would have leverage with Catalonia if it acts (acted?) in a responsible and sane manner -- Catalonia's economy would take a huge hit if it doesn't achieve international recognition or EU membership, and Spain can influence that quite a bit.
VHRanger 9y ago
A quick googling would show you Quebec is also 20% of Canadian GDP and 15% of Canadian population. Quebec moreover cuts off maritime provinces from the rest of Canada
slededit 9y ago
At the time of the referendum Quebec was subsidizing the rest of Canada through equalization payments. More recently they've been on the receiving end but that has not been true for most of its history.

notspanishflu 9y ago

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

techas 9y ago
Why? I don't follow your idea. Could you explain?
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  What part you don't understand? I'll try again. All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.
  - breischl 9y ago
    That is not clearer, at least to me. >All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards. This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?
    - notspanishflu 9y ago
      All Spaniards have the right, not only a part of Spaniards (like those living in Catalonia).
      - Mithaldu 9y ago
        You're advocating making the people in Catalonia prisoners to the rest of Spain.
      - dogma1138 9y ago
        It's like saying that the Welsh should have a right to vote on the independence of Scotland.

fauigerzigerk 9y ago

The problem is how you determine the entity that should have a right to such a vote. There are many wealthy regions in many countries that may want to keep all their money for themselves in spite of the fact that their wealth is based on its historical role within the country as a whole. For instance, London has a lot of reasons to declare itself independent from the UK. But it would seem rather odd if all it took to secede was a simple majority of people who currently have a London postcode.

mo_po 9y ago
As a catalan, I have to say that I don't care if we pay more taxes. What I find annoying is that PP, party that uses hate against catalans to win votes and has corruption rooted and proved since it's foundation, keeps raising election after election. The economical matter by itself is just a selfish argument that I don't share. I care for fighting corruption and for not being treated as a second class citizen because I was taught two languages in my childhood. Lies are spread constantly about how non-catalans are mistreated and nobody seems to care that there is no proof supporting that. Please, stop saying it is a money related problem.
- dgut 9y ago
  Catalonia has no better corruption track record than the rest of Spain. Basically what you are saying is that you don't like the majority party, and therefore want to form your own nation. That's not how democracy works. Catalonia already enjoys a strong autonomy status, stronger than any other region of Spain and arguably stronger than any other region of Europe. I agree PP isn't optimal, but I fail to see any real alternative coming from Catalonia or the entire region that is Spain.
- fauigerzigerk 9y ago
  I believe you when you say it's not about money for you. That doesn't mean it's not for many others. However, my concern is more about the principle of the right to secede.