7 ms·

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from t

by Aaargh20318 9y ago

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of people through democratic elections for practical purposes. If 'the people' decide their government's services are no longer needed, then there is nothing the government can do. It's not their call.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago
The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still standards. If the referendum is illegal, why does the national government bother at all? It can ignore the referendum.
- Aaargh20318 9y ago
  > The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was even born.
  - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
    From what I recall, the thing making this referendum illegal something from the 1970s.... Not sure if that changes your opinion and it also doesn't answer the question of why the national government is bothering anyway
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Are you arguing that you are not bound by any laws enacted before you could vote?
    - Aaargh20318 9y ago
      No, I'm arguing that I should have a choice wether to be a member of a society and as a result get all the benefits thereof and be subject to that society's laws, or not. It's a package deal. I either join the club, benefit from being a member, and have to play by the clubs rules or I don't.
- Kathee_HDS 9y ago
  The constitution was voted soon after the dictatorship ended. Times have changed greatly, and there have been several calls to re-write it and adapt it to modern times. However, the Spanish Government has always treated the constitution as a sacred text that can't be changed. BUT in the last few years, those who opposed changing the constitution democratically, used their absolute majority to enforce changes that were beneficial to the electrical, telephone and other services lobbies (which used to be public until they privatised them), and by extension, themselves. There's plenty of information about how high end politicians end up as those lobbies consultants after retiring from politics, a term that's been dubbed "puerta giratoria" or revolving door policy. And that hypocrisy is what brought this.
lurker456 9y ago
The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.
- Aaargh20318 9y ago
  > There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.
  - breischl 9y ago
    >Catalonia is a well-defined region That's not enough though. There are people who have tried to declare an independent country of their land, or their house, or their bedroom[1]. Clearly one person declaring their bedroom to be independent is silly and not allowable, but a large reason is. So somewhere there's a line, right? [1] - http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kingdom-of-talossa http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kingdom-of-talossa
    - ChristianBundy 9y ago
      > Clearly one person declaring their bedroom to be independent is silly and not allowable, but a large reason is. Clearly states are silly and not allowable, but here we are.
  - codedokode 9y ago
    If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states. Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves. When there is a lot of small states it will be easy to conquer them one by one - either by external enemy or by one of those small states. At least this is what happened in the Middle Age.
    - 9y ago
polack 9y ago
> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...
- throwawayknecht 9y ago
  > Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. I mean, sort of yes, but also Catalonia was annexed within living memory.
  - notspanishflu 9y ago
    If you believe that lie, I can't help you.
    - xenophonf 9y ago
      I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Reputable sources of info on the history of Catalonia are plentiful, whether online or in the library. In this case, OP is probably referring to the Spanish Civil War, which indeed happened within living memory and prior to which Catalonia was autonomous under the Second Spanish Republic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic_and_civil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic_...
      - kgwgk 9y ago
        It's true, Catalonia already proclaimed its independence on the evening of October 6th 1934 (it only lasted until the early morning of October 7th 1934, though).
      - InternetOfStuff 9y ago
        > I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Thank you.
notspanishflu 9y ago
The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.
- Aaargh20318 9y ago
  > If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole Let's boil it down to the basics: an election decides who is going to be leader of a group of people. For that leader to be legitimate every member has to voluntarily decide they want to be part of the group and thus the election. The problem here is not that Catalonia doesn't accept the government because they didn't like who won the elections. The problem here is that they never agreed to even be part of those elections. If we have a group of 10 people who decide to democratically pick a leader, and the majority chooses Steve. That's fine. What is not fine is taking 2 random people of the street and tell them they have to now do what Steve tells them because he was voted leader 10 against 2. They never agreed to take part in the election and respect its results.
  - mercer 9y ago
    And yet I don't see any way this can work without the 'tyranny of the majority', as long as we consider things like private property a thing. So ten people decide to bow at Steve's now-royal feet. His rule involves property. The two who didn't vote for him might be living within the boundaries of that property. Or it might not be economically feasible for them to survive without entering Steve's kingdom. And unfortunately all the other land is rules by Dave and Jared, who would require their submission just as much as Steve. I just don't see a practical way, within the framework of (pretty much?) then entire world at this point, where it is possible to not agree to take part in an election, and to realistically disrespect its results. Catalonia and the real world is more complicated, so perhaps there is a future where Catalonia succeeds at seceding. Personally I'm not as much against that as most people seem to be. But I guess I'm just pointing out that there's no simple anything that this situation can be reduced to.
Zigurd 9y ago
The question that clarifies the matter is not whether something is illegal. You can craft language to make lots of things illegal, especially within a hierarchy of national and regional governments. The question is whether voting for independence is a crime. When you have to make voting a crime, and deploy police to prevent the population turning out to vote, it's a pretty good indicator you are on the wrong side of history. This is probably not the the way the national government wanted their actions to be seen, nor is overwhelming popular disobedience the outcome they desired.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago

The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still standards. If the referendum is illegal, why does the national government bother at all? It can ignore the referendum.

Aaargh20318 9y ago
> The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was even born.
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago
  From what I recall, the thing making this referendum illegal something from the 1970s.... Not sure if that changes your opinion and it also doesn't answer the question of why the national government is bothering anyway
- mcguire 9y ago
  Are you arguing that you are not bound by any laws enacted before you could vote?
  - Aaargh20318 9y ago
    No, I'm arguing that I should have a choice wether to be a member of a society and as a result get all the benefits thereof and be subject to that society's laws, or not. It's a package deal. I either join the club, benefit from being a member, and have to play by the clubs rules or I don't.
Kathee_HDS 9y ago
The constitution was voted soon after the dictatorship ended. Times have changed greatly, and there have been several calls to re-write it and adapt it to modern times. However, the Spanish Government has always treated the constitution as a sacred text that can't be changed. BUT in the last few years, those who opposed changing the constitution democratically, used their absolute majority to enforce changes that were beneficial to the electrical, telephone and other services lobbies (which used to be public until they privatised them), and by extension, themselves. There's plenty of information about how high end politicians end up as those lobbies consultants after retiring from politics, a term that's been dubbed "puerta giratoria" or revolving door policy. And that hypocrisy is what brought this.

lurker456 9y ago

The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.

Aaargh20318 9y ago
> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.
- breischl 9y ago
  >Catalonia is a well-defined region That's not enough though. There are people who have tried to declare an independent country of their land, or their house, or their bedroom[1]. Clearly one person declaring their bedroom to be independent is silly and not allowable, but a large reason is. So somewhere there's a line, right? [1] - http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kingdom-of-talossa http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kingdom-of-talossa
  - ChristianBundy 9y ago
    > Clearly one person declaring their bedroom to be independent is silly and not allowable, but a large reason is. Clearly states are silly and not allowable, but here we are.
- codedokode 9y ago
  If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states. Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves. When there is a lot of small states it will be easy to conquer them one by one - either by external enemy or by one of those small states. At least this is what happened in the Middle Age.
  - 9y ago

polack 9y ago

> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...

throwawayknecht 9y ago
> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. I mean, sort of yes, but also Catalonia was annexed within living memory.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  If you believe that lie, I can't help you.
  - xenophonf 9y ago
    I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Reputable sources of info on the history of Catalonia are plentiful, whether online or in the library. In this case, OP is probably referring to the Spanish Civil War, which indeed happened within living memory and prior to which Catalonia was autonomous under the Second Spanish Republic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic_and_civil_war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Catalonia#Republic_...
    - kgwgk 9y ago
      It's true, Catalonia already proclaimed its independence on the evening of October 6th 1934 (it only lasted until the early morning of October 7th 1934, though).
    - InternetOfStuff 9y ago
      > I think you can assume goodwill here. If OP is mistaken, clue them in. Thank you.

notspanishflu 9y ago

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

Aaargh20318 9y ago
> If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole Let's boil it down to the basics: an election decides who is going to be leader of a group of people. For that leader to be legitimate every member has to voluntarily decide they want to be part of the group and thus the election. The problem here is not that Catalonia doesn't accept the government because they didn't like who won the elections. The problem here is that they never agreed to even be part of those elections. If we have a group of 10 people who decide to democratically pick a leader, and the majority chooses Steve. That's fine. What is not fine is taking 2 random people of the street and tell them they have to now do what Steve tells them because he was voted leader 10 against 2. They never agreed to take part in the election and respect its results.
- mercer 9y ago
  And yet I don't see any way this can work without the 'tyranny of the majority', as long as we consider things like private property a thing. So ten people decide to bow at Steve's now-royal feet. His rule involves property. The two who didn't vote for him might be living within the boundaries of that property. Or it might not be economically feasible for them to survive without entering Steve's kingdom. And unfortunately all the other land is rules by Dave and Jared, who would require their submission just as much as Steve. I just don't see a practical way, within the framework of (pretty much?) then entire world at this point, where it is possible to not agree to take part in an election, and to realistically disrespect its results. Catalonia and the real world is more complicated, so perhaps there is a future where Catalonia succeeds at seceding. Personally I'm not as much against that as most people seem to be. But I guess I'm just pointing out that there's no simple anything that this situation can be reduced to.

Zigurd 9y ago

The question that clarifies the matter is not whether something is illegal. You can craft language to make lots of things illegal, especially within a hierarchy of national and regional governments. The question is whether voting for independence is a crime. When you have to make voting a crime, and deploy police to prevent the population turning out to vote, it's a pretty good indicator you are on the wrong side of history. This is probably not the the way the national government wanted their actions to be seen, nor is overwhelming popular disobedience the outcome they desired.