6 ms·

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely neve

by 627467 9y ago

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

slim 9y ago
Politics are above law. Laws don't matter. The only thing that matters is power of the masses. If the Catalans are determined, laws will be changed
vkou 9y ago
The Declaration of Independence was also an illegal, treasonous document. The point of violent suppression of this referendum is optics. Those that fear and despise self-determination don't want to see a referendum result supporting succession. Even if the referendum is meaningless, that result will be used as justification for later actions. The EU may not endorse an independent Catalan today, but it is more likely to do so if there is a clear message that Catalan wants it.
MrPatan 9y ago
Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.
- marindez 9y ago
  >PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. That's a really miserable thing to say.
  - MrPatan 9y ago
    > miserable Very interesting word choice.
    - Kathee_HDS 9y ago
      It's a direct translation, miserable in spanish doesn't mean miserable in english, it means vile.
    - tankenmate 9y ago
      Let them eat coca de sucre!
  - severino 9y ago
    It's sad but true. People's Party has been using our terrorist problems to attack other parties when they were the opposition. They feel very comfortable with everybody talking about nothing but Catalonia or the Basque Country.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  No doubt, you're a Patán. FYI there was a terrorist group in Catalonia called "Terra Lliure". Now the members of that group are promoting secession.
  - MrPatan 9y ago
    My point exactly. The PP are working on the "was" to get to "will be again".
    - mcguire 9y ago
      Some civility here might be nice.
      - MrPatan 9y ago
        Fair enough, thanks.
  - severino 9y ago
    So what? Members of the former Spanish totalitarian regime are now in politics too, and I think it's great they changed their minds to now respect the most basic human rights. Don't you?
- pipio21 9y ago
  40 years ago Puyol used to say, first "paciencia" then "independencia". Now that independentists are doing what they have repeated millions of times they were going to do, it is a problem of the PP??? Leave me guess: You are leftist, communist maybe? How do I know? because your visceral hate is so strong you can't think at all.
  - MrPatan 9y ago
    If Rajoy had really wanted to fix the "Catalan problem", he'd have called the bluff of the referendum the first time around, like Cameron did in Scotland, the vote would have been a very clear "No", and that would have been it. Instead, here we are. Yes, this is very much the PP's fault. And absolutely, the Catalan politicians are another bunch of disgusting corrupt agitators, who will also benefit from the tension and violence. They are also loving it. They literally couldn't have hoped for a better outcome. I was merely answering the question of "Why is the Spanish government acting in such a stupid way?" Oh, and I'm afraid your "commie-dar" is a bit misaligned.
- jordanb 9y ago
  Wow yeah now it all makes sense actually. Spain's actions in all of this seemed completely bizarre to me. They could have diffused the situation so easily. They did the one thing that makes it all worse. But yeah, once you realize that Spain is ruled by a nationalist party that wants conflict and violence to maintain power.. this all must seem like a gift from heaven for them.
mjw1007 9y ago
Surely there are many countries now in existence whose declaration of independence was considered illegal by the country they declared independence from.
blfr 9y ago
The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation. If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.
- tankenmate 9y ago
  Which shows the futility of trying to bend the will of a people peacefully committed to self determination. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi So has the Spanish state moved to the third phase and enabled the fourth?
- AndrewDucker 9y ago
  If there are positive results then those people have chosen independence. So let them be independent. Anything else is despotism.
- soneil 9y ago
  There is a possible ‘win’ - if a clear & open referendum is held, and the results do not give independence a clear mandate. Both the lose-lose paths - and the government’s current actions - seem to presume independence would win that mandate in a fair vote. This was never presumed until the government started acting like it was.
  - blfr 9y ago
    This is a conditional and temporary win. It legitimizes the referendum path meaning Catalonia may try it again in a few years and other regions may attempt the same.
- 6t6t6t6 9y ago
  They didn't even tried to campaign for the NO.
olegkikin 9y ago
US slavery was legal, and it took a civil war to change that. The right of people to self-determination is actually a quite important concept in the international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
- faragon 9y ago
  The US made a war against separatists, in order to ensure the civil rights: the losers wanted a self-determination involving the "right" of slavery. So "self-determination" for evil/egoistic/xenophobic causes is not reasonable at all. In Catalan region the population is split in two. It is not a "revolution against the central government", but for the power inside the region.
  - olegkikin 9y ago
    You're correct, but that wasn't my point. Just because something is legal / illegal, doesn't automatically make it right or good / wrong or bad. I think they are trying to determine how the population is split by the voting. If it's a large enough population that doesn't want to live under the Spanish rule, they shouldn't. And if there's a minority that does want to live under the Spanish rule, they still can, just move to Spain.
    - faragon 9y ago
      The problem is far worse: 1) The Court gave orders to the regional police. 2) The regional police IGNORED the orders for a week (there are videos proving that). 3) The Court, after the innactivity of the regional police, asked the "inter-state" police ("Policia Nacional" and "Guardia Civil", that are polices that operate in Spain at global level) to do the work the regional police ignored to do (they pretended doing it, but not doing anything). Now, Catalan nationalists/separatists (one half of the Catalan population) have the photo of "violent Spanish police" repressing "idealist people just voting", while the truth is that regional police has been boycotting the Court during a week, against the rule of law. This is going to get ugly, probably with regional government and regional police authorities charged with many years of jail.
reidacdc 9y ago
I wonder if it's a (failed, obviously) attempt to control the optics. As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence. So if the vote proceeds, the Spanish government will be struggling to explain the result as being likely not representative, and illegal in any case, but they'll be doing so in the face of an invigorated independence movement that will be claiming a mandate. Even if the Spanish government's position is correct, this is a very hard PR problem. If you can quietly prevent the vote from proceeding, you deny the independence movement the ability to claim a mandate, they have less energy, and your PR problem is easier. Obviously, they got neither of these, but instead got a different flavor of PR disaster.
- 627467 9y ago
  Of course it is a very failed-state-like attempt at controlling optics on both sides: Spain PM and ruling party is marred with corruption cases and independentists parties have been failing to take Catalonia out of recession. Both sides have interest in the current controversy. I'm not minimising the will of some (even many or even majority) of Catalans, or even the will of Spain to keep its integrity through democratic means, but the current escalation everything to do with manipulation by self-interest ed parties.
- R_haterade 9y ago
  >As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence. I was under the impression that the pro-stay leaders were encouraging their supporters to stay home to de-legitimize the vote.
- paulddraper 9y ago
  True on all counts, but isn't there notion of free speech in Spain?
Aaargh20318 9y ago
> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of people through democratic elections for practical purposes. If 'the people' decide their government's services are no longer needed, then there is nothing the government can do. It's not their call.
- ringaroundthetx 9y ago
  The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still standards. If the referendum is illegal, why does the national government bother at all? It can ignore the referendum.
  - Aaargh20318 9y ago
    > The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was even born.
    - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
      From what I recall, the thing making this referendum illegal something from the 1970s.... Not sure if that changes your opinion and it also doesn't answer the question of why the national government is bothering anyway
    - 9y ago
candiodari 9y ago
And do you think these facts are unclear to either the Catalan government organizing the referendum or the Spanish government sending in 13000 "police" officers to stop them ? Yet the Catalan government moves forward (because that's how they got elected in the first place perhaps ?) and Spain is using violence to stop them (also illegal, but no way the courts are going to do anything about it, those officers do not have the right to operate there). The Catalan government is not stupid: they know most of the voting will be stopped. They declared that whatever votes they can gather, if 51% vote for independence, they will declare independence, illegal or not, however many votes they can gather and once declared they will presumably move their own police force directly against the Spanish force (that Catalan police force far outnumbers the Spanish police). That the voting is obstructed seems to virtually guarantee that 51% condition will be satisfied, whereas it would be a tossup at best if there was a fair election. It seems the Catalan government was gambling that Spain wouldn't take the risk, and they were right. Tomorrow Spain is the enemy, and Catalunya will be united under the separatist government. Sounds like it's a pretty good bet that more violence is coming. Europe has a huge problem. Europe's economy has been stagnant for the past 10+ years in the vast majority of Europe. There are only a few exceptions to that. Germany, the Netherlands, ... and Catalunya. Spain does not satisfy either the debt conditions or GDP conditions of joining the EU, and Catalunya does. But that's a trivial legal problem: when European politicians had to make the choice between more control and more people and their treaties (supposedly the constitution of Europe. heh), they chose for more control every single time. So Spain will be forgiven, and everybody will squint until Spain is allowed to stay. But Spain will obviously object to Catalunya staying in the EU. And if Catalunya separates, or even tries to and manages to make Spain look bad enough, many bridges might break. Belgium, the Flemish region versus Wallonia (in that one, Europe might lose it's capital). Scotland who might want to shortcut Brexit. Meanwhile, this will strengthen separatist movements in other countries (Italy, France, ... and those mostly want to leave Europe). Therefore a LOT of things could break very badly if Catalunya separates and Europe is vehemently against, but they can't come out and state as much. The only government even a little bit willing to come out and show some support is the Belgian NVA, which is sort-of a separatist movement itself. The big question is what they'll do next.
zzzcpan 9y ago
Referendum is basically a crowd psychology thing, that allows people to believe there is a big support for the independence. This makes it easier to create a shadow government, convince some of the local police to take its side and pressure others to at least not to intervene. And with support from the crowd and inactive police it will be easy to take over government buildings, mass communication channels for propaganda, set up block posts, etc., eventually creating a separate county. The government is in a hard position though, if it doesn't use force it loses. If it does it still might lose or even start a war, but at least there is a chance to stay in power.
pipio21 9y ago
Very simple. The idea was making the last normal elections an independence referendum, had independentist won. They lost. So they decided they would fly forward. Most of them, like Mas and Puigdemont were friends or partners of Puyol, who actually manage to steal hundreds of millions of euros, probably thousands, they are going to jail anyway. They have nothing to lose and lots to win. Puyol stole for 40 years without nobody in central Government doing anything, you could not do business there without paying to his family. He actually hired people from the Spanish secret services and got a lot of information back so central Government was scared of doing anything against him. The plan was doing all this and after 48 hours unilaterally declare independence, because of the "Oppressive state". For the independentists it is "now or never". Certainly is not easy to have someone as weak as Rajoy as prime minister. For me as an Spaniard who works in center Europe who last week was in Catalunya is obvious who is using violence. It is not the police. There are people trowing stones to police, they are insulting and spitting to them, they are doing scratches to them.
- thomasz 9y ago
  > For me as an Spaniard who works in center Europe who last week was in Catalunya is obvious who is using violence. It is not the police. There are people trowing stones to police, they are insulting and spitting to them, they are doing scratches to them. https://twitter.com/VictorHR3/status/914424974504587264 https://twitter.com/VictorHR3/status/914424974504587264
- JaumeGreen 9y ago
  There is no violence by catalan demostradors. You are simply lying with the usual Spanish centralist retoric. Has Pujol stolen? Yes. Have PP and PSOE (Spanish centralist groups) stolen? Yes. Are lots of catalan tired of being insulted, being told they are not important, being told they are insolidary, being told they speak a language too many? Yes. This movement is not in favour of local thieves, it's not against Spain, it's against some attitudes by fascists, that unfortunately are in power.
- Oletros 9y ago
  > Puyol stole for 40 years without nobody in central Government doing anything, you could not do business there without paying to his family. He actually hired people from the Spanish secret services and got a lot of information back so central Government was scared of doing anything against him. Poor central government, at least they are lucky that NOBODY in that party has been stealing and being corrupt, isn't? And yes, PuJol (Puyol is the football player) is a thief and one of the most corrupts politicians in Spain, buy he is not very different from a lot of others politicians of PP and PSOE
alkonaut 9y ago
I think this is about establishing that Catalonia doesn't want to be part of Spain on the current terms. If that's establish in a referendum (of any form) then they will have leverage to renegotiate their relation with Spain (much like Scotland). Spain has a lot to lose from that since Catalonia is an economic giant within Spain. So even violent quenching has better optics than allowing the referendum.
- notspanishflu 9y ago
  This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. Catalonia was a economical power but not anymore, all Spaniards are sustaining that region using the FLA (Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica or Autonomous Liquidity Fund).
  - sbmassey 9y ago
    Catalonia has it's own language though, whereas Mancunians may speak strangely, but it is still considered English.
  - throwawayknecht 9y ago
    > This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. In what way? (Let's ignore for now the fact Manchester did have a semi-serious independence movement during the Scotland referendum, and no police were necessary.)
  - pjc50 9y ago
    There's substantial bi-directional traffic between the Catalan and Scottish independence movements. Also, Manchester doesn't have its own language which the central government tried to suppress.
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
Isn't there something in the UN declaration of rights about self-determination.
pipio21 9y ago
This is one car out of several of the Guardia Civil: http://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/6/0/1506075882906.jpg http://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/6/0/150607588... https://s5.eestatic.com/2017/09/21/espana/Espana_248487335_47523799_1706x960.jpg https://s5.eestatic.com/2017/09/21/espana/Espana_248487335_4...
jordanb 9y ago
Yeah, Spain was looking like the good guys at first: rich Catalonia wants to keep all their tax money and not help anybody else. Nobody was supporting Catalonia and their illegal vote was completely irrelevant and wouldn't have been honored or respected. What Spain should have said is "ok Catalonia, have your little vote, it doesn't mean anything." And then just ignored the whole mess. Instead they sent in the brute squad and now you images of innocent people getting beat up in the street by Spanish thugs.

by 627467 9y ago

slim 9y ago

Politics are above law. Laws don't matter. The only thing that matters is power of the masses. If the Catalans are determined, laws will be changed

vkou 9y ago

The Declaration of Independence was also an illegal, treasonous document. The point of violent suppression of this referendum is optics. Those that fear and despise self-determination don't want to see a referendum result supporting succession. Even if the referendum is meaningless, that result will be used as justification for later actions. The EU may not endorse an independent Catalan today, but it is more likely to do so if there is a clear message that Catalan wants it.

MrPatan 9y ago

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

marindez 9y ago
>PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. That's a really miserable thing to say.
- MrPatan 9y ago
  > miserable Very interesting word choice.
  - Kathee_HDS 9y ago
    It's a direct translation, miserable in spanish doesn't mean miserable in english, it means vile.
  - tankenmate 9y ago
    Let them eat coca de sucre!
- severino 9y ago
  It's sad but true. People's Party has been using our terrorist problems to attack other parties when they were the opposition. They feel very comfortable with everybody talking about nothing but Catalonia or the Basque Country.
notspanishflu 9y ago
No doubt, you're a Patán. FYI there was a terrorist group in Catalonia called "Terra Lliure". Now the members of that group are promoting secession.
- MrPatan 9y ago
  My point exactly. The PP are working on the "was" to get to "will be again".
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Some civility here might be nice.
    - MrPatan 9y ago
      Fair enough, thanks.
- severino 9y ago
  So what? Members of the former Spanish totalitarian regime are now in politics too, and I think it's great they changed their minds to now respect the most basic human rights. Don't you?
pipio21 9y ago
40 years ago Puyol used to say, first "paciencia" then "independencia". Now that independentists are doing what they have repeated millions of times they were going to do, it is a problem of the PP??? Leave me guess: You are leftist, communist maybe? How do I know? because your visceral hate is so strong you can't think at all.
- MrPatan 9y ago
  If Rajoy had really wanted to fix the "Catalan problem", he'd have called the bluff of the referendum the first time around, like Cameron did in Scotland, the vote would have been a very clear "No", and that would have been it. Instead, here we are. Yes, this is very much the PP's fault. And absolutely, the Catalan politicians are another bunch of disgusting corrupt agitators, who will also benefit from the tension and violence. They are also loving it. They literally couldn't have hoped for a better outcome. I was merely answering the question of "Why is the Spanish government acting in such a stupid way?" Oh, and I'm afraid your "commie-dar" is a bit misaligned.
jordanb 9y ago
Wow yeah now it all makes sense actually. Spain's actions in all of this seemed completely bizarre to me. They could have diffused the situation so easily. They did the one thing that makes it all worse. But yeah, once you realize that Spain is ruled by a nationalist party that wants conflict and violence to maintain power.. this all must seem like a gift from heaven for them.

mjw1007 9y ago

Surely there are many countries now in existence whose declaration of independence was considered illegal by the country they declared independence from.

blfr 9y ago

The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation. If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.

tankenmate 9y ago
Which shows the futility of trying to bend the will of a people peacefully committed to self determination. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi So has the Spanish state moved to the third phase and enabled the fourth?
AndrewDucker 9y ago
If there are positive results then those people have chosen independence. So let them be independent. Anything else is despotism.
soneil 9y ago
There is a possible ‘win’ - if a clear & open referendum is held, and the results do not give independence a clear mandate. Both the lose-lose paths - and the government’s current actions - seem to presume independence would win that mandate in a fair vote. This was never presumed until the government started acting like it was.
- blfr 9y ago
  This is a conditional and temporary win. It legitimizes the referendum path meaning Catalonia may try it again in a few years and other regions may attempt the same.
6t6t6t6 9y ago
They didn't even tried to campaign for the NO.

olegkikin 9y ago

US slavery was legal, and it took a civil war to change that. The right of people to self-determination is actually a quite important concept in the international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

faragon 9y ago
The US made a war against separatists, in order to ensure the civil rights: the losers wanted a self-determination involving the "right" of slavery. So "self-determination" for evil/egoistic/xenophobic causes is not reasonable at all. In Catalan region the population is split in two. It is not a "revolution against the central government", but for the power inside the region.
- olegkikin 9y ago
  You're correct, but that wasn't my point. Just because something is legal / illegal, doesn't automatically make it right or good / wrong or bad. I think they are trying to determine how the population is split by the voting. If it's a large enough population that doesn't want to live under the Spanish rule, they shouldn't. And if there's a minority that does want to live under the Spanish rule, they still can, just move to Spain.
  - faragon 9y ago
    The problem is far worse: 1) The Court gave orders to the regional police. 2) The regional police IGNORED the orders for a week (there are videos proving that). 3) The Court, after the innactivity of the regional police, asked the "inter-state" police ("Policia Nacional" and "Guardia Civil", that are polices that operate in Spain at global level) to do the work the regional police ignored to do (they pretended doing it, but not doing anything). Now, Catalan nationalists/separatists (one half of the Catalan population) have the photo of "violent Spanish police" repressing "idealist people just voting", while the truth is that regional police has been boycotting the Court during a week, against the rule of law. This is going to get ugly, probably with regional government and regional police authorities charged with many years of jail.

reidacdc 9y ago

I wonder if it's a (failed, obviously) attempt to control the optics. As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence. So if the vote proceeds, the Spanish government will be struggling to explain the result as being likely not representative, and illegal in any case, but they'll be doing so in the face of an invigorated independence movement that will be claiming a mandate. Even if the Spanish government's position is correct, this is a very hard PR problem. If you can quietly prevent the vote from proceeding, you deny the independence movement the ability to claim a mandate, they have less energy, and your PR problem is easier. Obviously, they got neither of these, but instead got a different flavor of PR disaster.

627467 9y ago
Of course it is a very failed-state-like attempt at controlling optics on both sides: Spain PM and ruling party is marred with corruption cases and independentists parties have been failing to take Catalonia out of recession. Both sides have interest in the current controversy. I'm not minimising the will of some (even many or even majority) of Catalans, or even the will of Spain to keep its integrity through democratic means, but the current escalation everything to do with manipulation by self-interest ed parties.
R_haterade 9y ago
>As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence. I was under the impression that the pro-stay leaders were encouraging their supporters to stay home to de-legitimize the vote.
paulddraper 9y ago
True on all counts, but isn't there notion of free speech in Spain?

Aaargh20318 9y ago

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of people through democratic elections for practical purposes. If 'the people' decide their government's services are no longer needed, then there is nothing the government can do. It's not their call.

ringaroundthetx 9y ago
The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still standards. If the referendum is illegal, why does the national government bother at all? It can ignore the referendum.
- Aaargh20318 9y ago
  > The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was even born.
  - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
    From what I recall, the thing making this referendum illegal something from the 1970s.... Not sure if that changes your opinion and it also doesn't answer the question of why the national government is bothering anyway
  - 9y ago

candiodari 9y ago

And do you think these facts are unclear to either the Catalan government organizing the referendum or the Spanish government sending in 13000 "police" officers to stop them ? Yet the Catalan government moves forward (because that's how they got elected in the first place perhaps ?) and Spain is using violence to stop them (also illegal, but no way the courts are going to do anything about it, those officers do not have the right to operate there). The Catalan government is not stupid: they know most of the voting will be stopped. They declared that whatever votes they can gather, if 51% vote for independence, they will declare independence, illegal or not, however many votes they can gather and once declared they will presumably move their own police force directly against the Spanish force (that Catalan police force far outnumbers the Spanish police). That the voting is obstructed seems to virtually guarantee that 51% condition will be satisfied, whereas it would be a tossup at best if there was a fair election. It seems the Catalan government was gambling that Spain wouldn't take the risk, and they were right. Tomorrow Spain is the enemy, and Catalunya will be united under the separatist government. Sounds like it's a pretty good bet that more violence is coming. Europe has a huge problem. Europe's economy has been stagnant for the past 10+ years in the vast majority of Europe. There are only a few exceptions to that. Germany, the Netherlands, ... and Catalunya. Spain does not satisfy either the debt conditions or GDP conditions of joining the EU, and Catalunya does. But that's a trivial legal problem: when European politicians had to make the choice between more control and more people and their treaties (supposedly the constitution of Europe. heh), they chose for more control every single time. So Spain will be forgiven, and everybody will squint until Spain is allowed to stay. But Spain will obviously object to Catalunya staying in the EU. And if Catalunya separates, or even tries to and manages to make Spain look bad enough, many bridges might break. Belgium, the Flemish region versus Wallonia (in that one, Europe might lose it's capital). Scotland who might want to shortcut Brexit. Meanwhile, this will strengthen separatist movements in other countries (Italy, France, ... and those mostly want to leave Europe). Therefore a LOT of things could break very badly if Catalunya separates and Europe is vehemently against, but they can't come out and state as much. The only government even a little bit willing to come out and show some support is the Belgian NVA, which is sort-of a separatist movement itself. The big question is what they'll do next.

zzzcpan 9y ago

Referendum is basically a crowd psychology thing, that allows people to believe there is a big support for the independence. This makes it easier to create a shadow government, convince some of the local police to take its side and pressure others to at least not to intervene. And with support from the crowd and inactive police it will be easy to take over government buildings, mass communication channels for propaganda, set up block posts, etc., eventually creating a separate county. The government is in a hard position though, if it doesn't use force it loses. If it does it still might lose or even start a war, but at least there is a chance to stay in power.

pipio21 9y ago

Very simple. The idea was making the last normal elections an independence referendum, had independentist won. They lost. So they decided they would fly forward. Most of them, like Mas and Puigdemont were friends or partners of Puyol, who actually manage to steal hundreds of millions of euros, probably thousands, they are going to jail anyway. They have nothing to lose and lots to win. Puyol stole for 40 years without nobody in central Government doing anything, you could not do business there without paying to his family. He actually hired people from the Spanish secret services and got a lot of information back so central Government was scared of doing anything against him. The plan was doing all this and after 48 hours unilaterally declare independence, because of the "Oppressive state". For the independentists it is "now or never". Certainly is not easy to have someone as weak as Rajoy as prime minister. For me as an Spaniard who works in center Europe who last week was in Catalunya is obvious who is using violence. It is not the police. There are people trowing stones to police, they are insulting and spitting to them, they are doing scratches to them.

thomasz 9y ago
> For me as an Spaniard who works in center Europe who last week was in Catalunya is obvious who is using violence. It is not the police. There are people trowing stones to police, they are insulting and spitting to them, they are doing scratches to them. https://twitter.com/VictorHR3/status/914424974504587264 https://twitter.com/VictorHR3/status/914424974504587264
JaumeGreen 9y ago
There is no violence by catalan demostradors. You are simply lying with the usual Spanish centralist retoric. Has Pujol stolen? Yes. Have PP and PSOE (Spanish centralist groups) stolen? Yes. Are lots of catalan tired of being insulted, being told they are not important, being told they are insolidary, being told they speak a language too many? Yes. This movement is not in favour of local thieves, it's not against Spain, it's against some attitudes by fascists, that unfortunately are in power.
Oletros 9y ago
> Puyol stole for 40 years without nobody in central Government doing anything, you could not do business there without paying to his family. He actually hired people from the Spanish secret services and got a lot of information back so central Government was scared of doing anything against him. Poor central government, at least they are lucky that NOBODY in that party has been stealing and being corrupt, isn't? And yes, PuJol (Puyol is the football player) is a thief and one of the most corrupts politicians in Spain, buy he is not very different from a lot of others politicians of PP and PSOE

alkonaut 9y ago

I think this is about establishing that Catalonia doesn't want to be part of Spain on the current terms. If that's establish in a referendum (of any form) then they will have leverage to renegotiate their relation with Spain (much like Scotland). Spain has a lot to lose from that since Catalonia is an economic giant within Spain. So even violent quenching has better optics than allowing the referendum.

notspanishflu 9y ago
This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. Catalonia was a economical power but not anymore, all Spaniards are sustaining that region using the FLA (Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica or Autonomous Liquidity Fund).
- sbmassey 9y ago
  Catalonia has it's own language though, whereas Mancunians may speak strangely, but it is still considered English.
- throwawayknecht 9y ago
  > This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. In what way? (Let's ignore for now the fact Manchester did have a semi-serious independence movement during the Scotland referendum, and no police were necessary.)
- pjc50 9y ago
  There's substantial bi-directional traffic between the Catalan and Scottish independence movements. Also, Manchester doesn't have its own language which the central government tried to suppress.

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

Isn't there something in the UN declaration of rights about self-determination.

pipio21 9y ago

This is one car out of several of the Guardia Civil: http://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/6/0/1506075882906.jpg http://estaticos.elperiodico.com/resources/jpg/6/0/150607588... https://s5.eestatic.com/2017/09/21/espana/Espana_248487335_47523799_1706x960.jpg https://s5.eestatic.com/2017/09/21/espana/Espana_248487335_4...

jordanb 9y ago

Yeah, Spain was looking like the good guys at first: rich Catalonia wants to keep all their tax money and not help anybody else. Nobody was supporting Catalonia and their illegal vote was completely irrelevant and wouldn't have been honored or respected. What Spain should have said is "ok Catalonia, have your little vote, it doesn't mean anything." And then just ignored the whole mess. Instead they sent in the brute squad and now you images of innocent people getting beat up in the street by Spanish thugs.