4 ms·
Women's suffrage used to be illegal. Black movements in the US used to be illegal. Fight against apartheid used to be illegal. Now we have Spanish police beatin
by bitL 9y ago
Women's suffrage used to be illegal. Black movements in the US used to be illegal. Fight against apartheid used to be illegal. Now we have Spanish police beating ordinary people in the age of Internet. This is beyond Streisand-effect stupid. They should have done British style referendum, almost surely "Independencia" would have lost, and then could stick the result to the faces of local population for the next two decades. Now they basically made people there realize their opinion doesn't matter and convinced undecided people they're better on their own. At best they end up with a velvet-divorce in Czechoslovakian style, at worst... Well, a can of worms. It's a complete BS to also mention Catalonia would be out of EU; as the 2nd most advanced region of Spain EU would be more than happy to quickly accept them than to risk Russia/China making a foothold there. Oligarchs there should have played it the same way as in EEU, where they kept control of local economy and gave people meaningless concessions to keep them happy, and continued medial control of population. I am wondering if they really became so stupid or if they did actually plan Catalonian independence. Both alternatives are sadly likely.
- lz400 9y agoThat's a very obvious fallacy. Women's suffrage used to be legal, therefore all laws are wrong? or, the law I don't like is wrong?
- bitL 9y agoAll great movements of the past were illegal; that's what made them great in the history books, even if they were carefully planned by Machiavellian types in the background. One very popular past dictator in Germany was democratically elected though. If Spain wants to stay united, they really need to start talking to Catalonia instead of literally kicking their butts and smashing them on the ground, or they risk an abrupt end (maybe not today, but in 20 years when a new generation remembering this comes to full force and resentment can't be contained any longer).
- lz400 9y agoYou have already godwin'd me :) Anyway, imho this is still just fallacious. You are attaching to the Catalonian independence movement the adjective of "great". Then you say great movements are "illegal", etc. etc. Too much of a fact-less reasoning for me.
- ryanlol 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
- bitL 9y agoIt might be great from the point of view of Catalonians, horrible from the point of view of Castillians; it might be meh from the point of view of Balearians. Like all those *stan countries splitting from Soviet Union, I am sure they are super happy celebrating it and Russians looking sad, embarrassed and upset back at those events. What I was trying to point out is a simple historic observation that once population's perception of benefits is lost, inevitably a dissolution in a few decades comes (unless you do Stalin's style mass murders/transfers of nations to remove the issue completely, which I hope post-Franco Spain doesn't mediate at all).
- nsnick 9y agoLegal does not imply moral. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is immoral.
- crdoconnor 9y agoThe fallacy is your presumption that because something is illegal, it cannot be democratic. It's illegal to hold a vote like this in North Korea too and the judicial process would be similarly "forced" to follow the law. Still democratic.
- lz400 9y agoI don't presume that, although I think legal strongly signals democratic in a democracy. What I say is that this referendum is illegal and not democratic.