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Why is the referendum democratic? is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that v

by lz400 9y ago

Why is the referendum democratic? is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree.

fiblye 9y ago
Brexit was a democratic decision. People may hate the results and call it bullshit, say the vote shouldn't matter, etc. But it's still democratic. A non-democratic option would be the government breaking off without consulting the residents. Or a government saying people who live in a region aren't allowed to have a vote to decide their fate because politicians from other regions forbid it.
- lz400 9y ago
  Yes, it was agreed and allowed under local law. Catalonian's referendum was not. It's not legal. Needs to be agreed upon. Additionally, to see why a group of people wanting to secede might also be unethical, think about this case. A country finds unobtanium in its land. Decides to build an unobtanium factory there, which costs 20% of GDP but it pays off with awesome employment growth and tax revenue. Now the inhabitants of that region don't like that their tax gets used mainly in poorer areas of their country and want independence. Fair? I don't think so. So voting to leave is not always a natural right. Only under agreed conditions with all the national territory is ok. Barring ethnic cleanses, war and stuff like that but nothing like that has happened in Catalonia's case.
  - fiblye 9y ago
    It's easy to construct a Venn diagram of fairness for all and democracy. O O Very few independence movements are "fair". There are regions of every country in the world that generate a disproportionate amount of wealth relative to the others. There are regions with unique local identities that feel they're unfairly being squished out by others. There's no way to please everybody, and so countries essentially never respect independence votes and prefer conflict. There are few countries today where people would say, "you know, let's undo our independence." There are a lot of people who say "we can't let them become independent because it's bad for the people in the other regions." People thought America's independence was an ass-backwards and illegal decision because those fools were trying to get a free ride off of England while keeping all the resources to themselves. They, just like nearly every country that opposes secession, decided war would be a good idea to end it.
  - gonvaled 9y ago
    > Yes, it was agreed and allowed under local law. Catalonian's referendum was not. It's not legal. Needs to be agreed upon. There is no way Catalans could organize a legal referendum. That's something which is not going to change in the foreseeable future, specially having seen how the Spanish government has been behaving the last 15 years. Whenever you say to Catalans: this is not a legal referendum, you loose all legitimacy if you do not suggest how this can be made legal. And by that I mean a serious, well intentioned proposal, not simply a way of kicking the problem down the road, as the often repeated "let's change the constitution to allow for a referendum". This is positively never, ever going to happen, so it can be considered a joke.
nsnick 9y ago
If you use violence to stop a group from voting on anything you are undemocratic.
DCKing 9y ago
You seem to conflate 'democratic', 'legal' and 'desired'. Something can be democratic and illegal - when laws are enacted to prevent certain applications of democracy, as it appears to be the case here. Something can also be democratic and undesired - many on here that Brexit is an example of that. But words have meanings. A referendum if held under basic voting and independence rules is by definition democratic. Even if it concerns unilateral secession.
gonvaled 9y ago
> is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree. Definitely not, not under any circumstance. But if backed by a big (60%?) part of the population, then yes. Referendum are dangerous beasts, but not allowing popular opinion to be heard once in a while is even worse. So, as happens with democracy, which is "the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time", a referendum is the worst option, except for all the rest.

by lz400 9y ago

Why is the referendum democratic? is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree.

fiblye 9y ago

Brexit was a democratic decision. People may hate the results and call it bullshit, say the vote shouldn't matter, etc. But it's still democratic. A non-democratic option would be the government breaking off without consulting the residents. Or a government saying people who live in a region aren't allowed to have a vote to decide their fate because politicians from other regions forbid it.

lz400 9y ago
Yes, it was agreed and allowed under local law. Catalonian's referendum was not. It's not legal. Needs to be agreed upon. Additionally, to see why a group of people wanting to secede might also be unethical, think about this case. A country finds unobtanium in its land. Decides to build an unobtanium factory there, which costs 20% of GDP but it pays off with awesome employment growth and tax revenue. Now the inhabitants of that region don't like that their tax gets used mainly in poorer areas of their country and want independence. Fair? I don't think so. So voting to leave is not always a natural right. Only under agreed conditions with all the national territory is ok. Barring ethnic cleanses, war and stuff like that but nothing like that has happened in Catalonia's case.
- fiblye 9y ago
  It's easy to construct a Venn diagram of fairness for all and democracy. O O Very few independence movements are "fair". There are regions of every country in the world that generate a disproportionate amount of wealth relative to the others. There are regions with unique local identities that feel they're unfairly being squished out by others. There's no way to please everybody, and so countries essentially never respect independence votes and prefer conflict. There are few countries today where people would say, "you know, let's undo our independence." There are a lot of people who say "we can't let them become independent because it's bad for the people in the other regions." People thought America's independence was an ass-backwards and illegal decision because those fools were trying to get a free ride off of England while keeping all the resources to themselves. They, just like nearly every country that opposes secession, decided war would be a good idea to end it.
- gonvaled 9y ago
  > Yes, it was agreed and allowed under local law. Catalonian's referendum was not. It's not legal. Needs to be agreed upon. There is no way Catalans could organize a legal referendum. That's something which is not going to change in the foreseeable future, specially having seen how the Spanish government has been behaving the last 15 years. Whenever you say to Catalans: this is not a legal referendum, you loose all legitimacy if you do not suggest how this can be made legal. And by that I mean a serious, well intentioned proposal, not simply a way of kicking the problem down the road, as the often repeated "let's change the constitution to allow for a referendum". This is positively never, ever going to happen, so it can be considered a joke.

nsnick 9y ago

If you use violence to stop a group from voting on anything you are undemocratic.

DCKing 9y ago

You seem to conflate 'democratic', 'legal' and 'desired'. Something can be democratic and illegal - when laws are enacted to prevent certain applications of democracy, as it appears to be the case here. Something can also be democratic and undesired - many on here that Brexit is an example of that. But words have meanings. A referendum if held under basic voting and independence rules is by definition democratic. Even if it concerns unilateral secession.

gonvaled 9y ago

> is it your opinion that unilateral secession of any region, under any circumstances is democratic by definition? I find that very strange. I don't agree. Definitely not, not under any circumstance. But if backed by a big (60%?) part of the population, then yes. Referendum are dangerous beasts, but not allowing popular opinion to be heard once in a while is even worse. So, as happens with democracy, which is "the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time", a referendum is the worst option, except for all the rest.