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What about the other benefits of UBI, like increasing the bargaining power of labor? Do you believe that basic income wouldn't be able to give workers a greate

What about the other benefits of UBI, like increasing the bargaining power of labor? Do you believe that basic income wouldn't be able to give workers a greater ability to say no to low-quality jobs and wages, forcing (1) automation or (2) an increase in both to attract workers?

ThomPete 9y ago
UBI will always make it worthwhile to take a job because you wouldn't have to give any money back.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Financially, yes, economically, not necessarily. UBI greatly reduces the marginal value of the money you get from the job (since it's no longer the difference between paying for basic necessities or not), and since jobs have a cost, even if it's non-monetary, UBI may tip the balance against taking it.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Not sure what you mean. If UBI is, let's say $40000 a year and you do various jobs that land you $10000 you now have $50000. Why wouldn't I take that?
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Because the jobs may suck, and while earning $10k is much better than $0, earning $50k is not that much better than $40k.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        Which will be greatly countered by the fact that if you make $10K more than anyone else you are going to be one of the richest people you know. That $10K extra can buy you a lot of things. Again, judging UBI based on how things look like today is exactly where the discussion goes wrong. UBI makes sense if you accept the idea that there are almost no jobs left for humans. It doesn't make sense in a world where there is plenty of jobs. In other words, it's NOT a mechanism for getting people to work it's a way to ensure that all those people who have no work still have some way to buy things and keep some economy going.
freeflight 9y ago
Imho UBI could maybe even increase what little jobs will be left. People on UBI might only be willing to work part-time at reduced pay as the UBI makes up for the difference, employers would compensate by hiring two people for the same job and would generally have to be way more appealing to employes as the power-dynamic of that whole situation would be equalized. The far bigger barrier are probably gonna be cultural notions anyway. Right now we are basically conditioned to constantly work, be looking for work or at least give the appearance of being "productive" in some way or another, it's a giant rat race that seems to be constantly accelerating. Imagine a society where "working" more than 3-5 hours per day would be frowned upon, an utterly absurd idea to us, even tho it's realistically quite possible humans could live like that.

ThomPete 9y ago

UBI will always make it worthwhile to take a job because you wouldn't have to give any money back.

icebraining 9y ago
Financially, yes, economically, not necessarily. UBI greatly reduces the marginal value of the money you get from the job (since it's no longer the difference between paying for basic necessities or not), and since jobs have a cost, even if it's non-monetary, UBI may tip the balance against taking it.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Not sure what you mean. If UBI is, let's say $40000 a year and you do various jobs that land you $10000 you now have $50000. Why wouldn't I take that?
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Because the jobs may suck, and while earning $10k is much better than $0, earning $50k is not that much better than $40k.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      Which will be greatly countered by the fact that if you make $10K more than anyone else you are going to be one of the richest people you know. That $10K extra can buy you a lot of things. Again, judging UBI based on how things look like today is exactly where the discussion goes wrong. UBI makes sense if you accept the idea that there are almost no jobs left for humans. It doesn't make sense in a world where there is plenty of jobs. In other words, it's NOT a mechanism for getting people to work it's a way to ensure that all those people who have no work still have some way to buy things and keep some economy going.

freeflight 9y ago

Imho UBI could maybe even increase what little jobs will be left. People on UBI might only be willing to work part-time at reduced pay as the UBI makes up for the difference, employers would compensate by hiring two people for the same job and would generally have to be way more appealing to employes as the power-dynamic of that whole situation would be equalized. The far bigger barrier are probably gonna be cultural notions anyway. Right now we are basically conditioned to constantly work, be looking for work or at least give the appearance of being "productive" in some way or another, it's a giant rat race that seems to be constantly accelerating. Imagine a society where "working" more than 3-5 hours per day would be frowned upon, an utterly absurd idea to us, even tho it's realistically quite possible humans could live like that.