4 ms·

you need to radically reduce the cost of goods and services. How ? Automation.

by p1esk 9y ago

WalterBright 9y ago
The US free market has been very successful at radically reducing the cost of goods and services. Where it has failed to do so are in areas that are not free market, like health care.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  It seems like the health care system has been gamed in the USA so that health insurance companies and big pharmaceutical companies get a huge profit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is the case anywhere in Western Europe/Canada or most other countries that have a functional health care.
  - WalterBright 9y ago
    The massive regulation and government interference in health care in the US has definitely resulted in companies gaming it for profit. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame... https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Monopoly-Medical-Care-Frech/dp/0844738840 https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Monopoly-Medical-Care-Fre... https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-Amendments-Evaluative/dp/0844731285 https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-...
  - nickpp 9y ago
    Health care costs are high in other western countries as well. They are just paid indirectly, from the much higher taxation level.
    - rifung 9y ago
      Is that really true? I was under the impression when people talk about the cost of healthcare they aren't talking about the cost of insurance. Unless you're saying the taxation somehow subsidizes healthcare in addition to providing insurance? For example, medication is more expensive in the US right?
    - _Tev 9y ago
      No, USA pays much more than any other developed country, see: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?year_high_desc=true https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?year_hig... (below graph is sortable table)
- rbanffy 9y ago
  > The US free market has been very successful at radically reducing the cost of goods and services At the expense of generating poverty either in the form of people working two or three part time jobs (so that "costs" like healthcare can be avoided) to barely make rent or abroad, in factories where one needs to extend nets to prevent suicides.
  - nickpp 9y ago
    Poverty is where we all started from. Free market is the one responsible of the reduction of poverty in most western countries. To see the result of tightly controlled market, check out Venezuela and the old Easter European communist regimes.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      In support of this, have you happened across Deirdre McCloskey, and her tomes Bourgeois Dignity and two books that follow. She does a decent job of thrashing out, at length, why the dignity to participate in the free market by innovating and bringing those innovations to market is the thing that created the modern world. In her own words she gives a "full scale defence of capitalism."
  - SamReidHughes 9y ago
    The suicide rate at Foxconn was less than that of the general Chinese public. The people in poverty in America are well-off as measured by consumption rates. Note that a social safety net is not inconsistent with free markets.
  - WalterBright 9y ago
    The US has been the greatest bootstrapper of poor people into middle class and wealth history has ever seen. The US was populated by poor immigrants with little more than a suitcase. Wealthy people didn't immigrate to the US. Look at the statistics on height, longevity, and infant mortality from 1800 to today. It's a little hard to argue that the free market impoverished people. As for healthcare, that has not been a free market in the US at least since WW2.
- gnaritas 9y ago
  > Where it has failed to do so are in areas that are not free market, like health care. Alternatively, the free market has failed to work in certain areas forcing the government to get involved to attempt to fix things. If the free market worked for health care, we'd be using it.
  - greedo 9y ago
    The free market, whatever that really means hasn't been involved in healthcare in the US since WW2.
    - gnaritas 9y ago
      Not disputed, so what? What point are you making? That we need to give the free market another try so it can fail again? Healthcare lacks basic price transparency, consumer choice, even the ability to know what you're buying before you need to buy it. The free market solution to something like healthcare is insurance, how's that worked out? It's not something that can work well in a free market. I'm a capitalist, I believe capitalism is awesome, however capitalism doesn't work on everything, just most things. It's not a golden hammer that will solve all problems.
      - greedo 9y ago
        You stated that if the free market worked with healthcare, we'd be using it. But we don't know if it would improve the situation since it's been so long since the market was free in any sense. Look at Lasik eye surgery for a counterpoint. Yes, this is regulated by requiring licensed practitioners, but it's not controlled by insurance companies, Medicare/Medicaid etc. The cost for this procedure has dropped dramatically, while the procedure itself has improved in the last decade.

you need to radically reduce the cost of goods and services. How ? Automation.

by p1esk 9y ago

you need to radically reduce the cost of goods and services. How ? Automation.

The US free market has been very successful at radically reducing the cost of goods and services. Where it has failed to do so are in areas that are not free market, like health care.

stevenwoo 9y ago
It seems like the health care system has been gamed in the USA so that health insurance companies and big pharmaceutical companies get a huge profit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is the case anywhere in Western Europe/Canada or most other countries that have a functional health care.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  The massive regulation and government interference in health care in the US has definitely resulted in companies gaming it for profit. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-american-health-care-killed-my-father/307617/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/09/how-ame... https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Monopoly-Medical-Care-Frech/dp/0844738840 https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Monopoly-Medical-Care-Fre... https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-Amendments-Evaluative/dp/0844731285 https://www.amazon.com/Regulation-Pharmaceutical-Innovation-...
- nickpp 9y ago
  Health care costs are high in other western countries as well. They are just paid indirectly, from the much higher taxation level.
  - rifung 9y ago
    Is that really true? I was under the impression when people talk about the cost of healthcare they aren't talking about the cost of insurance. Unless you're saying the taxation somehow subsidizes healthcare in addition to providing insurance? For example, medication is more expensive in the US right?
  - _Tev 9y ago
    No, USA pays much more than any other developed country, see: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?year_high_desc=true https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?year_hig... (below graph is sortable table)
rbanffy 9y ago
> The US free market has been very successful at radically reducing the cost of goods and services At the expense of generating poverty either in the form of people working two or three part time jobs (so that "costs" like healthcare can be avoided) to barely make rent or abroad, in factories where one needs to extend nets to prevent suicides.
- nickpp 9y ago
  Poverty is where we all started from. Free market is the one responsible of the reduction of poverty in most western countries. To see the result of tightly controlled market, check out Venezuela and the old Easter European communist regimes.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    In support of this, have you happened across Deirdre McCloskey, and her tomes Bourgeois Dignity and two books that follow. She does a decent job of thrashing out, at length, why the dignity to participate in the free market by innovating and bringing those innovations to market is the thing that created the modern world. In her own words she gives a "full scale defence of capitalism."
- SamReidHughes 9y ago
  The suicide rate at Foxconn was less than that of the general Chinese public. The people in poverty in America are well-off as measured by consumption rates. Note that a social safety net is not inconsistent with free markets.
- WalterBright 9y ago
  The US has been the greatest bootstrapper of poor people into middle class and wealth history has ever seen. The US was populated by poor immigrants with little more than a suitcase. Wealthy people didn't immigrate to the US. Look at the statistics on height, longevity, and infant mortality from 1800 to today. It's a little hard to argue that the free market impoverished people. As for healthcare, that has not been a free market in the US at least since WW2.
gnaritas 9y ago
> Where it has failed to do so are in areas that are not free market, like health care. Alternatively, the free market has failed to work in certain areas forcing the government to get involved to attempt to fix things. If the free market worked for health care, we'd be using it.
- greedo 9y ago
  The free market, whatever that really means hasn't been involved in healthcare in the US since WW2.
  - gnaritas 9y ago
    Not disputed, so what? What point are you making? That we need to give the free market another try so it can fail again? Healthcare lacks basic price transparency, consumer choice, even the ability to know what you're buying before you need to buy it. The free market solution to something like healthcare is insurance, how's that worked out? It's not something that can work well in a free market. I'm a capitalist, I believe capitalism is awesome, however capitalism doesn't work on everything, just most things. It's not a golden hammer that will solve all problems.
    - greedo 9y ago
      You stated that if the free market worked with healthcare, we'd be using it. But we don't know if it would improve the situation since it's been so long since the market was free in any sense. Look at Lasik eye surgery for a counterpoint. Yes, this is regulated by requiring licensed practitioners, but it's not controlled by insurance companies, Medicare/Medicaid etc. The cost for this procedure has dropped dramatically, while the procedure itself has improved in the last decade.