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I get my Internet through CZFree, a non-profit community mesh network that covers Prague. The legal structure is the same as a non-profit private club. Members

I get my Internet through CZFree, a non-profit community mesh network that covers Prague. The legal structure is the same as a non-profit private club. Members can vote for administrators. A membership fee pays for those who put the large expensive multi-directional Ubiquity routers on their roofs and also for a number of symmetric high bandwidth tier 1 fiber-optic connections throughout the city. Anyone can join the network and contribute by putting a multi-directional antenna on their roof. Or they can simply become clients to the network by using a directional antenna pointed at a multi-directional antenna. Overall, the speed is much faster than with commercial Internet, and the bandwidth is symmetrical. In my opinion, this is a good example of the two faces of the left. One person forms a union and tries to bully their employer into giving them better conditions, or petitions the state to create laws which will benefit them. The other face of the left creates co-ops and gives the corporate world the finger. I personally believe that the second approach is superior to the first, and rather than trying to twist Comcast's arm into being nice, Americans should focus on building community networks, at least in the cities where such a thing is possible.

zerohp 9y ago
Corporations have twisted community politics to make such things very difficult. In my community, a municipal fiber optic network was built throughout the area but lobbying and politics made it nearly impossible to finish, so there are very few homes connected.
- timthelion 9y ago
  What laws exist against a 5ghz ubiquity mesh network? I know that such laws can be challenging. Here, there was a proposed law to charge money for the use of that wireless band. The law was very unpopular however, and was not passed. But I can understand that happening.
  - danieldk 9y ago
    What laws exist against a 5ghz ubiquity mesh network? That easy: make you liable for what people do on your network. Make it hard to register as an official network provider that would forfeit some of the liability. https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-fi-in-germany/ https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-f... (AFAIR, in Germany there are some changes now, but it's a good example how Internet sharing is made difficult for anyone without a large legal department.)
    - timthelion 9y ago
      I'm not sure what to say to this. I don't think that these challenges make my opinion wrong or invalid. They make me sad, and I'd like to fight against such challenges. But from an idealistic point of view, I don't think that they raise a fundamental problem with my belief in "community networks", merely a legal one which might be able to be fixed through protest and civil-disobedience, and all else failing, revolution (I guess you have to leave revolution on the table, despite the bad results revolutions have had in recent years, if democracy in your country really doesn't work at all).
  - bomdo 9y ago
    Mesh networking is cool, but it doesn't scale without at least some cable connected nodes routing the traffic. And those will be impacted by network neutrality. On an unrelated note, incredibly shady things are currently being done by US corporations in regards to the 5GHz unlicensed spectrum being used for commercial LTE [1]. This is obviously a very slippery slope and would need strong regulation from the FCC. However, the FCC just approved it for live use in February (Pai got into office in January). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_in_unlicensed_spectrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_in_unlicensed_spectrum
- chiefalchemist 9y ago
  So to maintain net neutrality we have to fix democracy first? Makes sense, as that would fix more than NN. The irony is, we need the internet (sans the cats photos and Kardashians) to do that.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Do you need the internet? So far, all successful, country wide, democratic movements in the history of humankind have happened off-line.
    - Abekkus 9y ago
      If your political enemy has the internet, and you don't, you lose.
    - jnicholasp 9y ago
      How many more successful, country wide, democratic movements would there have been in the history of humanity if there had been a means of communication and coordination as effective as the internet? "Need" is distinct from "makes far, far easier and likely". It can be done without the internet, obviously, but the circumstances in which it can be done are undoubtedly far more rare.
      - timthelion 9y ago
        Well, the Arab Spring, at the time, was seen as the emergence of the internet in the world of democratic revolution. Now we know it was a total failure. Not a single country came out better. Perhaps that is just a coincidence, but I think that it is possible that the speed and shallowness of the communication actually played a big role in the failure of the revolutions. Real, stable, democratic social structures cannot form in such a short time.
        serf 9y ago
        There are more forces required than the call-to-arms for a revolution to end in a net success for the people initiating it. I think it's unfair to task 'the internet' with the entire task of establishing a fair government. The communications channel succeeded. The call-to-arms was heard. The failure wasn't with the use of the internet, it was with everything that went on after dissent began. People expected 'internet = democracy' and overburdened the whole concept. Free and wide communications is just a stepping stone, one of many, that edges a governing body into fair-practice.
- bobwaycott 9y ago
  We did the same thing here in CHA. Luckily, we won the battle of lobbying and politics—and even a court case against Comcast. We fibered up the whole county. Sadly, telcos then lobbied for legislation to prevent expanding outside our service area, and they won. Now our legislators have given Comcast & AT&T $45M what our municipal broadband could do at zero cost to taxpayers. It’s ridiculous.
Cenk 9y ago
> One person forms a union and tries to bully their employer into giving them better conditions Oh come one
- timthelion 9y ago
  I take it you take issue with my writing "one person" because you think it is usually multiple people? If so, I agree with you. That is simply poorly written. I should have written "a group of people". Sorry.
  - Cenk 9y ago
    I think it’s pretty obvious that that is not the issue with what you wrote.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      You don't like the idea that unions try to bully their employers into having better salaries and work conditions? Would you prefer the word "pressure" to "bully"?
      - fasquoika 9y ago
        The word "bully" does seem to imply that the unions have all the power in the disagreement, which is rarely the case
      - Latty 9y ago
        Bully is defined as someone in a position of power harming or intimidating someone weaker. Unions are a reaction to the power imbalance of the employer/employee relationship, and at best make that equal. Characterising what Unions do as bullying is nonsense. Of course, it is becoming common for people in positions of privilege to complain that others demanding equality are bullying them by expecting the same rights they get to enjoy, so it isn't surprising.
        9y ago
woah 9y ago
Would be curious to get your opinion on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IyFEYEcHJyA&ab_channel=Althea https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IyFEYEcHJyA&ab_channel=Althea We've added a price metric, route verification and low overhead payments to babel. You guys probably don't need it because you have a business structure in place, but it could allow for more anarchic, decentralized mesh "ISPs"
rocky1138 9y ago
I'd love to set something like this up in Waterloo (Canada). How do you deal with things like child porn or pirated content?
- timthelion 9y ago
  I'm not an admin, just a user. However, this is the Czech Republic, so such things aren't the end of the world here. I'm sure the police would investigate child porn in much the same way they would with any other ISP, by investigating the user...
  - haecceity 9y ago
    I want to setup something like this where I live as well. So the nodes are connected via 802.11s? Who provides the internet access? I'm guessing a few users still need access to the local ISP?
    - whitef0x 9y ago
      While this isn't the exact same setup, might want to read this for more context on mesh network ISPs https://www.wired.com/2016/07/forget-comcast-heres-the-diy-approach-to-internet-access/ https://www.wired.com/2016/07/forget-comcast-heres-the-diy-a....
    - timthelion 9y ago
      See my comment above.
  - paul167 9y ago
    I'm also very interested in CZFree. Is there anywhere I can read up more on the technical setup ? I couldn't find anything in English. I'm specifically interested in what kind of connection to the 'main internet' you guys use.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      Here is a map of the network topology. Open up the legend on the right http://mapa.czfree.net/#lat=50.05831104094459&lng=14.475918933749199&zoom=14&tilt=0&heading=0&autofilter=1&type=satellite&node=1593&aponly=1&bbonly=1&actlink=1&actnode=1& http://mapa.czfree.net/#lat=50.05831104094459&lng=14.4759189... The mesh network is then connected to NFX fiber lines in some places. https://www.nfx.cz/ https://www.nfx.cz/ NFX is then connected to the main fiber backbones for the Czech Republic, NIX: https://www.nix.cz/cs https://www.nix.cz/cs You can read about the exact connection information on page 3 here: https://www.nix.cz/en/file/NIX_PROVOZNI_RAD_EN https://www.nix.cz/en/file/NIX_PROVOZNI_RAD_EN Edit: I also posted the map here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15376982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15376982, so "maybe" there will be more discussion on the technical side of it.
SkyMarshal 9y ago
Through what gateway do the various nodes in your mesh network connect to the Internet?

zerohp 9y ago

Corporations have twisted community politics to make such things very difficult. In my community, a municipal fiber optic network was built throughout the area but lobbying and politics made it nearly impossible to finish, so there are very few homes connected.

timthelion 9y ago
What laws exist against a 5ghz ubiquity mesh network? I know that such laws can be challenging. Here, there was a proposed law to charge money for the use of that wireless band. The law was very unpopular however, and was not passed. But I can understand that happening.
- danieldk 9y ago
  What laws exist against a 5ghz ubiquity mesh network? That easy: make you liable for what people do on your network. Make it hard to register as an official network provider that would forfeit some of the liability. https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-fi-in-germany/ https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-f... (AFAIR, in Germany there are some changes now, but it's a good example how Internet sharing is made difficult for anyone without a large legal department.)
  - timthelion 9y ago
    I'm not sure what to say to this. I don't think that these challenges make my opinion wrong or invalid. They make me sad, and I'd like to fight against such challenges. But from an idealistic point of view, I don't think that they raise a fundamental problem with my belief in "community networks", merely a legal one which might be able to be fixed through protest and civil-disobedience, and all else failing, revolution (I guess you have to leave revolution on the table, despite the bad results revolutions have had in recent years, if democracy in your country really doesn't work at all).
- bomdo 9y ago
  Mesh networking is cool, but it doesn't scale without at least some cable connected nodes routing the traffic. And those will be impacted by network neutrality. On an unrelated note, incredibly shady things are currently being done by US corporations in regards to the 5GHz unlicensed spectrum being used for commercial LTE [1]. This is obviously a very slippery slope and would need strong regulation from the FCC. However, the FCC just approved it for live use in February (Pai got into office in January). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_in_unlicensed_spectrum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_in_unlicensed_spectrum
chiefalchemist 9y ago
So to maintain net neutrality we have to fix democracy first? Makes sense, as that would fix more than NN. The irony is, we need the internet (sans the cats photos and Kardashians) to do that.
- timthelion 9y ago
  Do you need the internet? So far, all successful, country wide, democratic movements in the history of humankind have happened off-line.
  - Abekkus 9y ago
    If your political enemy has the internet, and you don't, you lose.
  - jnicholasp 9y ago
    How many more successful, country wide, democratic movements would there have been in the history of humanity if there had been a means of communication and coordination as effective as the internet? "Need" is distinct from "makes far, far easier and likely". It can be done without the internet, obviously, but the circumstances in which it can be done are undoubtedly far more rare.
    - timthelion 9y ago
      Well, the Arab Spring, at the time, was seen as the emergence of the internet in the world of democratic revolution. Now we know it was a total failure. Not a single country came out better. Perhaps that is just a coincidence, but I think that it is possible that the speed and shallowness of the communication actually played a big role in the failure of the revolutions. Real, stable, democratic social structures cannot form in such a short time.
      - serf 9y ago
        There are more forces required than the call-to-arms for a revolution to end in a net success for the people initiating it. I think it's unfair to task 'the internet' with the entire task of establishing a fair government. The communications channel succeeded. The call-to-arms was heard. The failure wasn't with the use of the internet, it was with everything that went on after dissent began. People expected 'internet = democracy' and overburdened the whole concept. Free and wide communications is just a stepping stone, one of many, that edges a governing body into fair-practice.
bobwaycott 9y ago
We did the same thing here in CHA. Luckily, we won the battle of lobbying and politics—and even a court case against Comcast. We fibered up the whole county. Sadly, telcos then lobbied for legislation to prevent expanding outside our service area, and they won. Now our legislators have given Comcast & AT&T $45M what our municipal broadband could do at zero cost to taxpayers. It’s ridiculous.

Cenk 9y ago

> One person forms a union and tries to bully their employer into giving them better conditions Oh come one

timthelion 9y ago
I take it you take issue with my writing "one person" because you think it is usually multiple people? If so, I agree with you. That is simply poorly written. I should have written "a group of people". Sorry.
- Cenk 9y ago
  I think it’s pretty obvious that that is not the issue with what you wrote.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    You don't like the idea that unions try to bully their employers into having better salaries and work conditions? Would you prefer the word "pressure" to "bully"?
    - fasquoika 9y ago
      The word "bully" does seem to imply that the unions have all the power in the disagreement, which is rarely the case
    - Latty 9y ago
      Bully is defined as someone in a position of power harming or intimidating someone weaker. Unions are a reaction to the power imbalance of the employer/employee relationship, and at best make that equal. Characterising what Unions do as bullying is nonsense. Of course, it is becoming common for people in positions of privilege to complain that others demanding equality are bullying them by expecting the same rights they get to enjoy, so it isn't surprising.
      - 9y ago

woah 9y ago

Would be curious to get your opinion on this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IyFEYEcHJyA&ab_channel=Althea https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IyFEYEcHJyA&ab_channel=Althea We've added a price metric, route verification and low overhead payments to babel. You guys probably don't need it because you have a business structure in place, but it could allow for more anarchic, decentralized mesh "ISPs"

rocky1138 9y ago

I'd love to set something like this up in Waterloo (Canada). How do you deal with things like child porn or pirated content?

timthelion 9y ago
I'm not an admin, just a user. However, this is the Czech Republic, so such things aren't the end of the world here. I'm sure the police would investigate child porn in much the same way they would with any other ISP, by investigating the user...
- haecceity 9y ago
  I want to setup something like this where I live as well. So the nodes are connected via 802.11s? Who provides the internet access? I'm guessing a few users still need access to the local ISP?
  - whitef0x 9y ago
    While this isn't the exact same setup, might want to read this for more context on mesh network ISPs https://www.wired.com/2016/07/forget-comcast-heres-the-diy-approach-to-internet-access/ https://www.wired.com/2016/07/forget-comcast-heres-the-diy-a....
  - timthelion 9y ago
    See my comment above.
- paul167 9y ago
  I'm also very interested in CZFree. Is there anywhere I can read up more on the technical setup ? I couldn't find anything in English. I'm specifically interested in what kind of connection to the 'main internet' you guys use.
  - timthelion 9y ago
    Here is a map of the network topology. Open up the legend on the right http://mapa.czfree.net/#lat=50.05831104094459&lng=14.475918933749199&zoom=14&tilt=0&heading=0&autofilter=1&type=satellite&node=1593&aponly=1&bbonly=1&actlink=1&actnode=1& http://mapa.czfree.net/#lat=50.05831104094459&lng=14.4759189... The mesh network is then connected to NFX fiber lines in some places. https://www.nfx.cz/ https://www.nfx.cz/ NFX is then connected to the main fiber backbones for the Czech Republic, NIX: https://www.nix.cz/cs https://www.nix.cz/cs You can read about the exact connection information on page 3 here: https://www.nix.cz/en/file/NIX_PROVOZNI_RAD_EN https://www.nix.cz/en/file/NIX_PROVOZNI_RAD_EN Edit: I also posted the map here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15376982 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15376982, so "maybe" there will be more discussion on the technical side of it.

SkyMarshal 9y ago

Through what gateway do the various nodes in your mesh network connect to the Internet?