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> Both are traumatic experiences and will haunt the person for the rest of their life. The issue here is that with an expanded definition of rape, rape isn't a

> Both are traumatic experiences and will haunt the person for the rest of their life. The issue here is that with an expanded definition of rape, rape isn't always traumatic. Thousands of women have drunken sex every night, yet the vast majority of them aren't traumatized by it.

IgorPartola 9y ago
> The issue here is that with an expanded definition of rape, rape isn't always traumatic. facepalm Say that sentence out loud until what you just said kicks in. Consensual sex, even when alcohol is involved, is still consensual sex. Rape is rape.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  > Consensual sex, even when alcohol is involved, is still consensual sex. Rape is rape. The issue is that drunk consensual sex is no longer considered consensual. The definition of rape has changed and expanded over the years to include activities that are pretty common in our society.
  - IgorPartola 9y ago
    I'mma need a real good source here. Show me any legal definition of rape that says that.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      Absolutely! https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=305 https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=305 With Stanford's definition, consent can be considered null and void because they were drunk at the time, opening up the potential for retroactive revocation of consensual drunk sex.
      - IgorPartola 9y ago
        No. I take issue with the definition of "any alcohol => no ability to consent" but Stanford's definition is pretty clear: there is a point past which you are too drunk to consent. Like, if I found you passed out in a bar bathroom and started fucking you, you wouldn't be able to consent, right? But if you had a beer and said "let's go to my place", you obviously can. There is no law or definition that says "any alcohol automatically means no ability to consent."
        Retric 9y ago
        'any alcohol' != drunk. But the line includes 'judgment is impaired' which is a very loos definition. 'Drunk' has expanded with DUI laws to be include very mild levels of intoxication as people get DUI while not noticeably impaired. Further, nobody is taking blood tests making dunk and consent tricky subjects. Can a 120lb person give consent after 4 shots in 2 hours? How about 6, 7 etc?
        IgorPartola 9y ago
        And if you look at actual cases that were investigated and went to trial, you won’t see the line of argument “well your honor I had four shots and then I told him ‘yes I really want to have sex with you, you have my consent’ but obviously I could not give consent because I was drunk. The alcohol in my system made me say those words out loud in a clear tone that I made sure he heard and understood.” That’s just not how it goes down. Usually you get a whole lot of victim blaming for being in a bad situation, and no clear enthusiastic verbal consent was given. There is some gray area there and that’s how actual rapists often end up walking free. But in reality if you got enthusiastic clear verbal consent before and after the person took the four shots, and during they didn’t lose consciousness and didn’t stop you, but continued giving you signs that they were still consenting, chances are you are safe. If you don’t have clear and enthusiastic verbal or written consent, don’t have sex. It is pretty simple in practice.
        Retric 9y ago
    - DanBC 9y ago
      England: here's the definition of rape. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents You need to read that in combination with the prosecution services guidance: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/ especially the consent section: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/... > Lack of consent may be demonstrated by: [...] > Evidence that by reason of drink, drugs, sleep, age or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/ or incapable of giving valid consent; or You also need to read these in combination with the sentencing guidelines: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Final_Sexual_Offences_Definitive_Guideline_content_web1.pdf https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Fina... Alcohol increases the culpability of the offender. In practice I agree with you: it's harder for victims to prove their case when alcohol is involved for a variety of victim blaming reasons.

IgorPartola 9y ago

> The issue here is that with an expanded definition of rape, rape isn't always traumatic. facepalm Say that sentence out loud until what you just said kicks in. Consensual sex, even when alcohol is involved, is still consensual sex. Rape is rape.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> Consensual sex, even when alcohol is involved, is still consensual sex. Rape is rape. The issue is that drunk consensual sex is no longer considered consensual. The definition of rape has changed and expanded over the years to include activities that are pretty common in our society.
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  I'mma need a real good source here. Show me any legal definition of rape that says that.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Absolutely! https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=305 https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=305 With Stanford's definition, consent can be considered null and void because they were drunk at the time, opening up the potential for retroactive revocation of consensual drunk sex.
    - IgorPartola 9y ago
      No. I take issue with the definition of "any alcohol => no ability to consent" but Stanford's definition is pretty clear: there is a point past which you are too drunk to consent. Like, if I found you passed out in a bar bathroom and started fucking you, you wouldn't be able to consent, right? But if you had a beer and said "let's go to my place", you obviously can. There is no law or definition that says "any alcohol automatically means no ability to consent."
      - Retric 9y ago
        'any alcohol' != drunk. But the line includes 'judgment is impaired' which is a very loos definition. 'Drunk' has expanded with DUI laws to be include very mild levels of intoxication as people get DUI while not noticeably impaired. Further, nobody is taking blood tests making dunk and consent tricky subjects. Can a 120lb person give consent after 4 shots in 2 hours? How about 6, 7 etc?
        IgorPartola 9y ago
        And if you look at actual cases that were investigated and went to trial, you won’t see the line of argument “well your honor I had four shots and then I told him ‘yes I really want to have sex with you, you have my consent’ but obviously I could not give consent because I was drunk. The alcohol in my system made me say those words out loud in a clear tone that I made sure he heard and understood.” That’s just not how it goes down. Usually you get a whole lot of victim blaming for being in a bad situation, and no clear enthusiastic verbal consent was given. There is some gray area there and that’s how actual rapists often end up walking free. But in reality if you got enthusiastic clear verbal consent before and after the person took the four shots, and during they didn’t lose consciousness and didn’t stop you, but continued giving you signs that they were still consenting, chances are you are safe. If you don’t have clear and enthusiastic verbal or written consent, don’t have sex. It is pretty simple in practice.
        Retric 9y ago
  - DanBC 9y ago
    England: here's the definition of rape. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents You need to read that in combination with the prosecution services guidance: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/ especially the consent section: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/... > Lack of consent may be demonstrated by: [...] > Evidence that by reason of drink, drugs, sleep, age or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/ or incapable of giving valid consent; or You also need to read these in combination with the sentencing guidelines: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Final_Sexual_Offences_Definitive_Guideline_content_web1.pdf https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Fina... Alcohol increases the culpability of the offender. In practice I agree with you: it's harder for victims to prove their case when alcohol is involved for a variety of victim blaming reasons.