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> It is the classic way of the dictatorship Let's not kid ourselves though. The people voted time and again for Erdogan and his policies. It's a democracy that

> It is the classic way of the dictatorship Let's not kid ourselves though. The people voted time and again for Erdogan and his policies. It's a democracy that brought this upon itself. Putting the blame on a single individual and labeling them a dictator just muddies the water.

thriftwy 9y ago
Actually when they voted the wrong way he just held a reelection for more preferred results.
- vixen99 9y ago
  Rather like the EU forcing Ireland to vote again on the rejected Lisbon Treaty. 'Vote until you get it right'.
jon_richards 9y ago
>Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. Karl Popper, "The Open Society and Its Enemies", 1945
- melvinmt 9y ago
  Also related: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  Suppressing ideas perceived to be intolerant by those in power is intolerant itself, though. Who is to decide what is and is not intolerant? A good example of this is immigration reform in the US. Many people consider deporting illegal immigrants to be intolerant despite the fact that they would just be enforcing existing US law. Should everyone who wants mass illegal immigrant deportation be suppressed and attacked in the name of tolerance?
  - pgorczak 9y ago
    That's why he calls it a paradox. IIRC Popper mentions it in the context of the also relevant democratic paradox (a democracy abolishing itself by democratic process).
  - beepboopbeep 9y ago
    You can advocate for law enforcement without being a frothing animal about it.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Reminds me of rationale behind GPL versus BSD. Or is that far fetched? Are there other analogies?
kutkloon7 9y ago
True, but is also a public secret that people who vote against Erdogan are being threatened.
vintageseltzer 9y ago
It's really not that simple. That's akin to saying the people of Russia and North Korea voted time and time again for Putin and KJU. When 90% of media is either in prison or controlled by the state, when judges are appointed and dismissed based on their politics, when massive protest after massive protest is brutally crushed, when investigations into irregularities at polling stations are ignored, year after year after year, it can't be said that this is simply what the people voted for. The opposition has been being illegally and brutally suppressed for a decade.
- remind_me_again 9y ago
  Don't forget the drum beats to convince US public to invade Iraq. Media is much more controlled by the establishment than any other country here in US.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  The Turks in Germany also voted for Erdogan in large numbers. There is a little more going on than just oppression.
  - cJ0th 9y ago
    > The Turks in Germany also voted for Erdogan in large numbers. The Turks in Germany who voted voted for Erdogan in large numbers.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      In most elections only the people who voted get counted. That's the way elections work. The Turks in Germany could have voted against him if they had wanted to without fear.
pvg 9y ago
It's a democracy that brought this upon itself. This is the country that gave us the expression 'deep state', so the idea that this was a strong institutional democracy that foolishly but genuinely voted itself itself into the current situation is pretty facile.
_ph_ 9y ago
It is important to note that Hitler came to power by an entire "democratic" process. His party was voted into power by several elections until they reached a point where they started passing laws which one by one eliminated democracy. Look at the recent changes in Turkey. Yes, Erdogan got democratic approval to the changes to the constitution which now enable him to control the media and most government functions.

thriftwy 9y ago

Actually when they voted the wrong way he just held a reelection for more preferred results.

vixen99 9y ago
Rather like the EU forcing Ireland to vote again on the rejected Lisbon Treaty. 'Vote until you get it right'.

jon_richards 9y ago

>Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. Karl Popper, "The Open Society and Its Enemies", 1945

melvinmt 9y ago
Also related: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
Suppressing ideas perceived to be intolerant by those in power is intolerant itself, though. Who is to decide what is and is not intolerant? A good example of this is immigration reform in the US. Many people consider deporting illegal immigrants to be intolerant despite the fact that they would just be enforcing existing US law. Should everyone who wants mass illegal immigrant deportation be suppressed and attacked in the name of tolerance?
- pgorczak 9y ago
  That's why he calls it a paradox. IIRC Popper mentions it in the context of the also relevant democratic paradox (a democracy abolishing itself by democratic process).
- beepboopbeep 9y ago
  You can advocate for law enforcement without being a frothing animal about it.
Fnoord 9y ago
Reminds me of rationale behind GPL versus BSD. Or is that far fetched? Are there other analogies?

kutkloon7 9y ago

True, but is also a public secret that people who vote against Erdogan are being threatened.

vintageseltzer 9y ago

It's really not that simple. That's akin to saying the people of Russia and North Korea voted time and time again for Putin and KJU. When 90% of media is either in prison or controlled by the state, when judges are appointed and dismissed based on their politics, when massive protest after massive protest is brutally crushed, when investigations into irregularities at polling stations are ignored, year after year after year, it can't be said that this is simply what the people voted for. The opposition has been being illegally and brutally suppressed for a decade.

remind_me_again 9y ago
Don't forget the drum beats to convince US public to invade Iraq. Media is much more controlled by the establishment than any other country here in US.
maxxxxx 9y ago
The Turks in Germany also voted for Erdogan in large numbers. There is a little more going on than just oppression.
- cJ0th 9y ago
  > The Turks in Germany also voted for Erdogan in large numbers. The Turks in Germany who voted voted for Erdogan in large numbers.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    In most elections only the people who voted get counted. That's the way elections work. The Turks in Germany could have voted against him if they had wanted to without fear.

pvg 9y ago

It's a democracy that brought this upon itself. This is the country that gave us the expression 'deep state', so the idea that this was a strong institutional democracy that foolishly but genuinely voted itself itself into the current situation is pretty facile.

_ph_ 9y ago

It is important to note that Hitler came to power by an entire "democratic" process. His party was voted into power by several elections until they reached a point where they started passing laws which one by one eliminated democracy. Look at the recent changes in Turkey. Yes, Erdogan got democratic approval to the changes to the constitution which now enable him to control the media and most government functions.