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The iOS 11 leaving the Wi-Fi on but unassociated creates a privacy vulnerability because the chipset will broadcast all of it's known SSIDs. Plus, whatever vuln

The iOS 11 leaving the Wi-Fi on but unassociated creates a privacy vulnerability because the chipset will broadcast all of it's known SSIDs. Plus, whatever vulnerabilities remain in the chipset. This is terrible. When Wi-Fi is "off" it should be off.

ronnier 9y ago
It was a stupid move. I can’t believe that it’s not getting more heat and attention
evgen 9y ago
When wifi is on it will look for an AP just like everything else does, and when it is off it does not broadcast at all. How difficult is this for you to understand? If you are talking about the control center 'disconnect from current wifi' option, well, get over it. Being unassociated with an AP is NOT the same as being turned off, and it never has been.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  The point is, when I want to turn Wifi off, and use the common UI to do so, it should be off - and not just "in a state where it won't associate with AP's" .. this is Apple treating their users like idiots and putting us all at risk as a result of it - and, you have to ask why they do this? The reason is so that they can still harvest data while you're not associated with the AP - covertly, even - so that their location accessory 'feature' gets more data points.. From Apple directly: "For the best experience on your iOS device, try to keep Wi-Fi and Bluetooth turned on." The reason is because Apple are using WiFi for purposes other than those of the average user - data harvesting.
  - evgen 9y ago
    WTF is 'common UI' even supposed to mean in this context? Apple is not treating their users like idiots, they are doing what the users usually want when they flip wireless settings via the control center. This may differ than what you expect, but I am sure you will eventually get over it. The number of people who used the control center to flip wifi/bluetooth for privacy purposes is so vanishingly small as to be a null set, especially when compared to the number of people who simply use the toggle to disconnect from a mediocre wifi connection so that they can use cellular data instead.
    - josteink 9y ago
      The common use case for a light switch is that when I switch it off, the light bulb stops receiving power and turns off. Same for my oven, stove top, vacuum cleaner and pretty much every other device I can think of. WTH should the WiFi or Bluetooth switches on my iPhone operate differently? This is another one of those crazy decisions by Apple. And apple being apple means you won’t have any other options either. It should be perfectly acceptable, maybe normal even, to have a problem with that.
      - evgen 9y ago
        They should operate differently because there is a difference between 'disconnect' and 'off'. This is not a binary state. The fact that you and a lot of other people on HN cannot seem to comprehend this or understand why most people actually need 'disconnect' more than they need 'off' is why you have a problem that no one else really cares about.
        josteink 9y ago
        And when you switch it off, it should go off. Why is that an unreasonable expectation? Where in the history of mobile phones has this toggle meant disconnect? Why should that expectation suddenly arise now? Changing semantics for the same UI, for the same button, without the slightest hint that anything has actually changed... That is simply bad design.
        burntrelish1273 9y ago
        Yes. Changing privacy and security-implication behavior around without good cause for edge-case "usability" is silly. What happens, if say, a Syrian is killed by their government because they were able to use their gossiping device to locate them? All that iOS 11 privacy work becomes moot if there's a SIGINT fail.
        mmjaa 9y ago
        Likewise, the fact you can't comprehend that people want off when they mean off, is equally disturbing!
  - JustSomeNobody 9y ago
    You can turn off the “data harvesting” stuff in the privacy settings.
matthewmacleod 9y ago
When Wi-Fi is "off" it should be off. Agreed. That’s why you can still turn it off, but now the UI caters to what I’d consider the more common use-case.
comex 9y ago
> The iOS 11 leaving the Wi-Fi on but unassociated creates a privacy vulnerability because the chipset will broadcast all of it's known SSIDs. It will? I don't see why it would do so, given that auto-join is disabled.
- willstrafach 9y ago
  I do not think this is true. Last I recall, iOS did this a few years ago.
- burntrelish1273 9y ago
  Then you haven't been paying attention: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/11/where-have-you-been-your-smartphones-wi-fi-is-telling-everyone/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/11/where... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/loose-lipped-iphones-top-the-list-of-smartphones-exploited-by-hacker/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/loose-lipped-iphones...
tjoff 9y ago
So much for apples "privacy stand" people seems to tout here. Nothing but PR in practice.
jonnytran 9y ago
Ugh!!! For those who aren't aware, see "Wi-Fi told me everything about you" [1]. So what's the workaround? I have to go into Settings and turn it off there? Will that actually turn it off? We've already established that turning off wifi on Android may or may not actually turn it off [2]. 1: http://confiance-numerique.clermont-universite.fr/Slides/M-Cunche-2014.pdf http://confiance-numerique.clermont-universite.fr/Slides/M-C... 2: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01575519/document https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01575519/document
- jonnytran 9y ago
  Looks like iOS does MAC address randomization during Wi-Fi probing since iOS 8.
- willstrafach 9y ago
  Yes, turning it off in Control Center means it will not join new networks. In Settings, it actually explains this below the still-on Wi-Fi switch, which you can turn off.

ronnier 9y ago

It was a stupid move. I can’t believe that it’s not getting more heat and attention

evgen 9y ago

When wifi is on it will look for an AP just like everything else does, and when it is off it does not broadcast at all. How difficult is this for you to understand? If you are talking about the control center 'disconnect from current wifi' option, well, get over it. Being unassociated with an AP is NOT the same as being turned off, and it never has been.

mmjaa 9y ago
The point is, when I want to turn Wifi off, and use the common UI to do so, it should be off - and not just "in a state where it won't associate with AP's" .. this is Apple treating their users like idiots and putting us all at risk as a result of it - and, you have to ask why they do this? The reason is so that they can still harvest data while you're not associated with the AP - covertly, even - so that their location accessory 'feature' gets more data points.. From Apple directly: "For the best experience on your iOS device, try to keep Wi-Fi and Bluetooth turned on." The reason is because Apple are using WiFi for purposes other than those of the average user - data harvesting.
- evgen 9y ago
  WTF is 'common UI' even supposed to mean in this context? Apple is not treating their users like idiots, they are doing what the users usually want when they flip wireless settings via the control center. This may differ than what you expect, but I am sure you will eventually get over it. The number of people who used the control center to flip wifi/bluetooth for privacy purposes is so vanishingly small as to be a null set, especially when compared to the number of people who simply use the toggle to disconnect from a mediocre wifi connection so that they can use cellular data instead.
  - josteink 9y ago
    The common use case for a light switch is that when I switch it off, the light bulb stops receiving power and turns off. Same for my oven, stove top, vacuum cleaner and pretty much every other device I can think of. WTH should the WiFi or Bluetooth switches on my iPhone operate differently? This is another one of those crazy decisions by Apple. And apple being apple means you won’t have any other options either. It should be perfectly acceptable, maybe normal even, to have a problem with that.
    - evgen 9y ago
      They should operate differently because there is a difference between 'disconnect' and 'off'. This is not a binary state. The fact that you and a lot of other people on HN cannot seem to comprehend this or understand why most people actually need 'disconnect' more than they need 'off' is why you have a problem that no one else really cares about.
      - josteink 9y ago
        And when you switch it off, it should go off. Why is that an unreasonable expectation? Where in the history of mobile phones has this toggle meant disconnect? Why should that expectation suddenly arise now? Changing semantics for the same UI, for the same button, without the slightest hint that anything has actually changed... That is simply bad design.
        burntrelish1273 9y ago
        Yes. Changing privacy and security-implication behavior around without good cause for edge-case "usability" is silly. What happens, if say, a Syrian is killed by their government because they were able to use their gossiping device to locate them? All that iOS 11 privacy work becomes moot if there's a SIGINT fail.
      - mmjaa 9y ago
        Likewise, the fact you can't comprehend that people want off when they mean off, is equally disturbing!
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  You can turn off the “data harvesting” stuff in the privacy settings.

matthewmacleod 9y ago

When Wi-Fi is "off" it should be off. Agreed. That’s why you can still turn it off, but now the UI caters to what I’d consider the more common use-case.

comex 9y ago

> The iOS 11 leaving the Wi-Fi on but unassociated creates a privacy vulnerability because the chipset will broadcast all of it's known SSIDs. It will? I don't see why it would do so, given that auto-join is disabled.

willstrafach 9y ago
I do not think this is true. Last I recall, iOS did this a few years ago.
burntrelish1273 9y ago
Then you haven't been paying attention: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/11/where-have-you-been-your-smartphones-wi-fi-is-telling-everyone/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/11/where... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/loose-lipped-iphones-top-the-list-of-smartphones-exploited-by-hacker/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/03/loose-lipped-iphones...

tjoff 9y ago

So much for apples "privacy stand" people seems to tout here. Nothing but PR in practice.

jonnytran 9y ago

Ugh!!! For those who aren't aware, see "Wi-Fi told me everything about you" [1]. So what's the workaround? I have to go into Settings and turn it off there? Will that actually turn it off? We've already established that turning off wifi on Android may or may not actually turn it off [2]. 1: http://confiance-numerique.clermont-universite.fr/Slides/M-Cunche-2014.pdf http://confiance-numerique.clermont-universite.fr/Slides/M-C... 2: https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01575519/document https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01575519/document

jonnytran 9y ago
Looks like iOS does MAC address randomization during Wi-Fi probing since iOS 8.
willstrafach 9y ago
Yes, turning it off in Control Center means it will not join new networks. In Settings, it actually explains this below the still-on Wi-Fi switch, which you can turn off.