6 ms·

So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spa

So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spain? Where would this end (maybe there are pockets within the pockets within the pockets)? It is a practical shitty situation. Do not make it sound SIMPLE. Do not use the word tyranny when it does not apply. And the rich leaving the poor seems like a right wing thing to do. Maybe Franco would agree that the smaller "upper class" need protection from the tyranny of the poor. Or maybe money is not the biggest part of the equation, maybe it is just a nationalistic disgrace of the same kind that forced Castilian as language onto Basques and Catalans during Franco. Maybe we will get a Franco like situation in Catalonia where minorities are not allowed to teach/speak Castilian. I think that would be a disgrace for every decent person killed by the butchers of Franco and other "nationalists". And what is the lesson to learn from all this, should all nations start to force minorities to speak the national language just because if we give minorities relative freedom and power they will claim independence? And possibly treat our minorities left bad?

monort 9y ago
What's wrong with independence of small groups? The more governments - the more competition. Why are we against big monopolies in every area, except the state services?
- lederhosen 9y ago
  Where does the recursion end? Should Catalonia accept independence from pockets where the majority wants to be Spanish?
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    The recursion ends where people wants it to end. Can your neighborhood struck trade deals with India? Then maybe your neighborhood wants to team up with others around to do that... See where I'm going?
    - bonzini 9y ago
      Could Catalunya strike trade deals with the EU even?
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Sure it can. It already meets all the requirements to be a member, EU law is ingrained in Catalan law, it has the ability to negotiate and state structures. It just needs to be an independent country. It would be better to be in the EU, but meanwhile that happens some bilateral trade deals with the EU should be relatively easy to accomplish. If you're referring to recognition as a country, that's a separate and huge discussion. If Catalonia is not recognised it can't take its part of Spanish debt with it (might be up to 20% of the total) while being a rebel region not paying taxes and maybe under military occupation. How is Spain, which is still in critical condition with a debt of the size of its GDP, going to fare? This month Spain had to get a loan to pay pensions. This month! So if Spain loses 20% of its GDP while keeping all the debt, how is it going to survive? And if Spain can't pay and falls, what's going to happen to the EU? You thought Brexit was bad? This is much worse! A situation were the outcome of a YES vote is negotiated and Catalonia pays his dues is a win-win for every stakeholder: Catalans, Catalonia, Spaniards, Spain and the EU. Striking trade deals after that is pure pragmatism. Just go through old papers about Slovenia or even the Baltics. It's all about realpolitik at the end and Catalonia has to be able to show its value to the world.
        bonzini 9y ago
        Re. that being worse than Brexit, I definitely agree. But one of the requirements for entering the EU is unanimous approval from the other countries. That is not going to happen for Catalunya.
        cinquemb 9y ago
        >That is not going to happen for Catalunya. Which makes think about the ramifications for the future of the EU with a yes vote in the referendum. A relatively prosperous region in on the European subcontinent that agrees to succeed will embroil the EU with more political and economic turmoil than it already has, and open the subcontinent up to more non EU influence. Might be a boon for multinational corporations and some governments who have something to gain from a weaker EU. At least something tells me that the recent former Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the US State Dept words from a leaked phone conversation on the EU a couple years ago probably stands true today of the perspective some powerful people have in the world on the EU…
  - monort 9y ago
    Surely Catalonia should accept independence of Spaniards pockets, though I realize that in practice they probably won't. Why do you think there should be a forced limit for recursion?
- pvaldes 9y ago
  > What's wrong with independence of small groups? The extinction Being smaller is stupid when you need to compete with much bigger countries in the rest of the world. It doesn't work in the practise.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    That's something for people to decide for themselves, though. I mean, by the same argument, why not let someone annex Spain? If bigger is better...
  - yxhuvud 9y ago
    In that case, ideally you could still be as united as you need to be under the umbrella of the European Union.
  - elecbit 9y ago
    Then, let us Catalans be stupid and go to extintion ourselves. We will probably be fine. If you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us instead of forbid us everything. I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one.
    - pvaldes 9y ago
      > if you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us Yeah, the tiresome "seduce us (with mo' fresh money)" argument again. I have a better idea, why you don't try to seduce me instead to call me thief (Spain stole us) and abuser (Spain oppress us and do not let us be free) and hit me all the time with a new surrealist occurrence (don't buy spanish products, here are a list of the evil companies that you must avoid if you want to be a good citizen)? In the last 60 years, you have been offered a lot of gifs and privileges (that by the way, I don't enjoy), and is never enough. You are never, ever, happy. Always creating drama around, like an old crazy theater lady past her prime, always demanding to be loved, but giving in return dry sarcasm and a single uncaring kiss by christmas (when there are cameras around). So thanks, but not thanks. I will pass this time. You are not so irresistible as you think and not so beautiful as you were 20 years ago. I deserve something better. > I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one. This does not bother me, but there is always a first time for everything.

monort 9y ago

What's wrong with independence of small groups? The more governments - the more competition. Why are we against big monopolies in every area, except the state services?

lederhosen 9y ago
Where does the recursion end? Should Catalonia accept independence from pockets where the majority wants to be Spanish?
- NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  The recursion ends where people wants it to end. Can your neighborhood struck trade deals with India? Then maybe your neighborhood wants to team up with others around to do that... See where I'm going?
  - bonzini 9y ago
    Could Catalunya strike trade deals with the EU even?
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      Sure it can. It already meets all the requirements to be a member, EU law is ingrained in Catalan law, it has the ability to negotiate and state structures. It just needs to be an independent country. It would be better to be in the EU, but meanwhile that happens some bilateral trade deals with the EU should be relatively easy to accomplish. If you're referring to recognition as a country, that's a separate and huge discussion. If Catalonia is not recognised it can't take its part of Spanish debt with it (might be up to 20% of the total) while being a rebel region not paying taxes and maybe under military occupation. How is Spain, which is still in critical condition with a debt of the size of its GDP, going to fare? This month Spain had to get a loan to pay pensions. This month! So if Spain loses 20% of its GDP while keeping all the debt, how is it going to survive? And if Spain can't pay and falls, what's going to happen to the EU? You thought Brexit was bad? This is much worse! A situation were the outcome of a YES vote is negotiated and Catalonia pays his dues is a win-win for every stakeholder: Catalans, Catalonia, Spaniards, Spain and the EU. Striking trade deals after that is pure pragmatism. Just go through old papers about Slovenia or even the Baltics. It's all about realpolitik at the end and Catalonia has to be able to show its value to the world.
      - bonzini 9y ago
        Re. that being worse than Brexit, I definitely agree. But one of the requirements for entering the EU is unanimous approval from the other countries. That is not going to happen for Catalunya.
        cinquemb 9y ago
        >That is not going to happen for Catalunya. Which makes think about the ramifications for the future of the EU with a yes vote in the referendum. A relatively prosperous region in on the European subcontinent that agrees to succeed will embroil the EU with more political and economic turmoil than it already has, and open the subcontinent up to more non EU influence. Might be a boon for multinational corporations and some governments who have something to gain from a weaker EU. At least something tells me that the recent former Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the US State Dept words from a leaked phone conversation on the EU a couple years ago probably stands true today of the perspective some powerful people have in the world on the EU…
- monort 9y ago
  Surely Catalonia should accept independence of Spaniards pockets, though I realize that in practice they probably won't. Why do you think there should be a forced limit for recursion?
pvaldes 9y ago
> What's wrong with independence of small groups? The extinction Being smaller is stupid when you need to compete with much bigger countries in the rest of the world. It doesn't work in the practise.
- int_19h 9y ago
  That's something for people to decide for themselves, though. I mean, by the same argument, why not let someone annex Spain? If bigger is better...
- yxhuvud 9y ago
  In that case, ideally you could still be as united as you need to be under the umbrella of the European Union.
- elecbit 9y ago
  Then, let us Catalans be stupid and go to extintion ourselves. We will probably be fine. If you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us instead of forbid us everything. I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one.
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    > if you want us to be in Spain, please seduce us Yeah, the tiresome "seduce us (with mo' fresh money)" argument again. I have a better idea, why you don't try to seduce me instead to call me thief (Spain stole us) and abuser (Spain oppress us and do not let us be free) and hit me all the time with a new surrealist occurrence (don't buy spanish products, here are a list of the evil companies that you must avoid if you want to be a good citizen)? In the last 60 years, you have been offered a lot of gifs and privileges (that by the way, I don't enjoy), and is never enough. You are never, ever, happy. Always creating drama around, like an old crazy theater lady past her prime, always demanding to be loved, but giving in return dry sarcasm and a single uncaring kiss by christmas (when there are cameras around). So thanks, but not thanks. I will pass this time. You are not so irresistible as you think and not so beautiful as you were 20 years ago. I deserve something better. > I haven't heard of any new independent country asking to be part again of the former one. This does not bother me, but there is always a first time for everything.