5 ms·

Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is. So w

Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is. So willing to vote and say goodbye to this bla-bla-bla-this is not legal, that is not legal. Good bye opressors. My deceased family in the war the dicator won will be really happy if we can finally separate. Too many open wounds you have never tried to heal.

euyyn 9y ago
> Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. It's easier to separate Communists from non-Communists, because each of us gets to vote to only one party, than Catalans from non-Catalans. And even though Communists are a clear minority in Spain, you'd be hard pressed to find one that equates "not having a majority in Congress" with "being victims of a tyranny". If your family lived under the dictatorship, you should be sensitive to what they (and many others) suffered and fought, to not use lightly words like oppression and tyranny.
- elecbit 9y ago
  The problem here is that all the inheritants of the Franco dictatorship and their mentailty are still in the power, thanks to the Spanish transition in which the Dictator passed the power to the King. Then promoted a bi-party politics where the minorities would never be able to change anything. It is not fair and Catalonia is fighting (again) to change it.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    After Franco, Spain has been governed for 6 years by centrists, 21 years by socialists, and 14 years by the PP. The fantasy of "the Transición didn't take the francoists off the power" would need the likes of Felipe Gonzalez be "mentally francoist". It's no more than a feel-good fantasy. The fact that you need to convince the majority to change something, while individuals are constitutionally protected, is really how democracies work. If anything, nationalist minorities have wielded much more power in the Spanish Congress than other minorities with more voters, due to quirks of our electoral law.
lederhosen 9y ago
So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spain? Where would this end (maybe there are pockets within the pockets within the pockets)? It is a practical shitty situation. Do not make it sound SIMPLE. Do not use the word tyranny when it does not apply. And the rich leaving the poor seems like a right wing thing to do. Maybe Franco would agree that the smaller "upper class" need protection from the tyranny of the poor. Or maybe money is not the biggest part of the equation, maybe it is just a nationalistic disgrace of the same kind that forced Castilian as language onto Basques and Catalans during Franco. Maybe we will get a Franco like situation in Catalonia where minorities are not allowed to teach/speak Castilian. I think that would be a disgrace for every decent person killed by the butchers of Franco and other "nationalists". And what is the lesson to learn from all this, should all nations start to force minorities to speak the national language just because if we give minorities relative freedom and power they will claim independence? And possibly treat our minorities left bad?
- monort 9y ago
  What's wrong with independence of small groups? The more governments - the more competition. Why are we against big monopolies in every area, except the state services?
  - lederhosen 9y ago
    Where does the recursion end? Should Catalonia accept independence from pockets where the majority wants to be Spanish?
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      The recursion ends where people wants it to end. Can your neighborhood struck trade deals with India? Then maybe your neighborhood wants to team up with others around to do that... See where I'm going?
      - 9y ago

euyyn 9y ago

> Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. It's easier to separate Communists from non-Communists, because each of us gets to vote to only one party, than Catalans from non-Catalans. And even though Communists are a clear minority in Spain, you'd be hard pressed to find one that equates "not having a majority in Congress" with "being victims of a tyranny". If your family lived under the dictatorship, you should be sensitive to what they (and many others) suffered and fought, to not use lightly words like oppression and tyranny.

elecbit 9y ago
The problem here is that all the inheritants of the Franco dictatorship and their mentailty are still in the power, thanks to the Spanish transition in which the Dictator passed the power to the King. Then promoted a bi-party politics where the minorities would never be able to change anything. It is not fair and Catalonia is fighting (again) to change it.
- euyyn 9y ago
  After Franco, Spain has been governed for 6 years by centrists, 21 years by socialists, and 14 years by the PP. The fantasy of "the Transición didn't take the francoists off the power" would need the likes of Felipe Gonzalez be "mentally francoist". It's no more than a feel-good fantasy. The fact that you need to convince the majority to change something, while individuals are constitutionally protected, is really how democracies work. If anything, nationalist minorities have wielded much more power in the Spanish Congress than other minorities with more voters, due to quirks of our electoral law.

lederhosen 9y ago

So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spain? Where would this end (maybe there are pockets within the pockets within the pockets)? It is a practical shitty situation. Do not make it sound SIMPLE. Do not use the word tyranny when it does not apply. And the rich leaving the poor seems like a right wing thing to do. Maybe Franco would agree that the smaller "upper class" need protection from the tyranny of the poor. Or maybe money is not the biggest part of the equation, maybe it is just a nationalistic disgrace of the same kind that forced Castilian as language onto Basques and Catalans during Franco. Maybe we will get a Franco like situation in Catalonia where minorities are not allowed to teach/speak Castilian. I think that would be a disgrace for every decent person killed by the butchers of Franco and other "nationalists". And what is the lesson to learn from all this, should all nations start to force minorities to speak the national language just because if we give minorities relative freedom and power they will claim independence? And possibly treat our minorities left bad?

monort 9y ago
What's wrong with independence of small groups? The more governments - the more competition. Why are we against big monopolies in every area, except the state services?
- lederhosen 9y ago
  Where does the recursion end? Should Catalonia accept independence from pockets where the majority wants to be Spanish?
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    The recursion ends where people wants it to end. Can your neighborhood struck trade deals with India? Then maybe your neighborhood wants to team up with others around to do that... See where I'm going?
    - 9y ago