4 ms·

On the one hand, look at these maps [1], that show the results of the general spanish elections since the dissolution of the dictatoship. Do you see the upper-r

On the one hand, look at these maps [1], that show the results of the general spanish elections since the dissolution of the dictatoship. Do you see the upper-right part that is nearly always different than the majority? That is Catalonia. Catalans also have a different language, a strong sense of being a nation (their "local consitution" says so!), etc.. Money is one of the reasons, but not the only one, not even by a long shot. [1] https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Elecciones_en_España#Distribuci.C3.B3n_geogr.C3.A1fica_del_voto_en_las_elecciones_generales https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Elecciones_en_España#Dis...

StavrosK 9y ago
> Catalans also have a different language, a strong sense of being a nation (their "local consitution" says so!), etc.. And none of those things is being repressed, I have to add. As a Catalan friend pointed out, they speak and teach Catalan in schools, have complete freedom to vote on issues of their region, etc. I have to agree with the GP that it's mostly the economy doing a bit better than the other regions, which leads Catalonia to a "why should we have to support these others" mentality.
- kilburn 9y ago
  Yes they are. The pro-independence movement didn't really take off until the Spanish Constitutional Court thwarted 17 articles and redacted 27 more from the latest "Catalan constitution" (Estatut). A "constitution" which had been approved by the Catalan Parliament, the Spanish Parliament and the Catalan citizens themselves in a referendum (in that order). Likewise, the latest Spanish education law (LOMCE) includes an article making it MANDATORY to offer a Spanish-as-the-vehicular-language education if any parents ask for it. How is that "having complete freedom to vote on issues of their region"? You may mean "... so long as Spain as a whole is fine with them". How complete.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    Couldn't you make the same point for any region? I'm free to do whatever I want to my house, as long as my district is fine with it. My district is free to do whatever they want, as long as the country is fine with it. The country is free to do what they want, as long as the EU is fine with it. And so on. It's the cost of living with other people, and there are benefits to that too.
    - kilburn 9y ago
      The United Nations have sanctioned the self-determination right [1]. Quoting wikipedia: > It [the self-determination right] states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference. Hence, your argument breaks down at some point. The big issue is how to define that point, because the right definition does not include qualifying criteria for what constitutes "people" and what doesn't. Based on their strong national identity, pro-separatists in Catalonia consider that they have this right. There are many issues and arguments supporting both sides (although most state-nations are against any kind of wide applicability of the self-determination right for obvious reasons). In any case, nobody, neither in Catalonia nor elsewhere advocates for that right for your family, your district, etc. because you don't have a national sentiment, you don't feel like a separate ethnic and so on. We can discuss whether Catalans constitute an ethnicity separate from the Spaniards or not, whether the self-determination right applies in this case or not, and so on... but please don't use the "If Catalans can, my family should also be able too" because it is just derailing the conversation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
  - qiv 9y ago
    No, the independence movement took off when the right-wing CiU feared loosing elections. And then it kept growing because it was very convenient to the conservatives in the rest of Spain, equally troubled by corruption :-)
6t6t6t6 9y ago
Being a self-sustainable, and relatively wealthy region is what allows the Independence movement but, as you said, it is not the cause.

StavrosK 9y ago

> Catalans also have a different language, a strong sense of being a nation (their "local consitution" says so!), etc.. And none of those things is being repressed, I have to add. As a Catalan friend pointed out, they speak and teach Catalan in schools, have complete freedom to vote on issues of their region, etc. I have to agree with the GP that it's mostly the economy doing a bit better than the other regions, which leads Catalonia to a "why should we have to support these others" mentality.

kilburn 9y ago
Yes they are. The pro-independence movement didn't really take off until the Spanish Constitutional Court thwarted 17 articles and redacted 27 more from the latest "Catalan constitution" (Estatut). A "constitution" which had been approved by the Catalan Parliament, the Spanish Parliament and the Catalan citizens themselves in a referendum (in that order). Likewise, the latest Spanish education law (LOMCE) includes an article making it MANDATORY to offer a Spanish-as-the-vehicular-language education if any parents ask for it. How is that "having complete freedom to vote on issues of their region"? You may mean "... so long as Spain as a whole is fine with them". How complete.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  Couldn't you make the same point for any region? I'm free to do whatever I want to my house, as long as my district is fine with it. My district is free to do whatever they want, as long as the country is fine with it. The country is free to do what they want, as long as the EU is fine with it. And so on. It's the cost of living with other people, and there are benefits to that too.
  - kilburn 9y ago
    The United Nations have sanctioned the self-determination right [1]. Quoting wikipedia: > It [the self-determination right] states that a people, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference. Hence, your argument breaks down at some point. The big issue is how to define that point, because the right definition does not include qualifying criteria for what constitutes "people" and what doesn't. Based on their strong national identity, pro-separatists in Catalonia consider that they have this right. There are many issues and arguments supporting both sides (although most state-nations are against any kind of wide applicability of the self-determination right for obvious reasons). In any case, nobody, neither in Catalonia nor elsewhere advocates for that right for your family, your district, etc. because you don't have a national sentiment, you don't feel like a separate ethnic and so on. We can discuss whether Catalans constitute an ethnicity separate from the Spaniards or not, whether the self-determination right applies in this case or not, and so on... but please don't use the "If Catalans can, my family should also be able too" because it is just derailing the conversation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
- qiv 9y ago
  No, the independence movement took off when the right-wing CiU feared loosing elections. And then it kept growing because it was very convenient to the conservatives in the rest of Spain, equally troubled by corruption :-)

6t6t6t6 9y ago

Being a self-sustainable, and relatively wealthy region is what allows the Independence movement but, as you said, it is not the cause.