4 ms·

Whoa. Don’t characterise the whole of Europe based on the comments of one single imperalist-minded European.

jorgemf 9y ago
Out of curiosity, why am I a imperialist-minded European? What makes you think so?
logicallee 9y ago
It's just that their comment was very surprising to me. Spain is obviously completely modern in every way and a full-size EU participant: therefore, their comment (and followup, "the law is the law") reveals that this structural protection for the idea of free speech, that there is something higher than the law, isn't baked into the structure of modern European democracies via a separated judicial branch or analogous institute of checks and balances. Instead, European democracies are apparently governed by law. If I'm mistaken, then which European country did you have in mind, which couldn't decide to do the same thing, because their respective institutions would strike down the law as unconstitutional (even if it had majority support)?
- jorgemf 9y ago
  1) It is a binding referendum (this is what some catalan politics say). It is not about what they think, but about what are they going to do. The binding part is what makes this completely illegal. 2) Some people don't take is seriously because it is against the law (there is a law which they can use to do a referendum like this but it needs support from central government and an open dialog that is not happening) 3) Catalans agree with the law. The Catalan court was who said this referendum was illegal. In any democracy you must govern by the law. The people chose the government and they make the laws. What is wrong with this? If you want a different government you vote something different, but Catalans are not doing this either. This process is not supported by some independist.
  - logicallee 9y ago
    >In any democracy you must govern by the law. The people chose the government and they make the laws. What is wrong with this? you raise a good question and the answer is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority . That's why in America even if the majority support a law limiting speech, the supreme court will still strike down such a law - the State can't cause the removal of things like this app in America, lawfully; even if it has people's support. what is interesting is that I wouldn't have to explain this to someone else in America - it's part of what everyone already knows.
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      That is why you have a constitution. This referendum is against it and that is why is against the law. You cannot claim your city as independent of the country doing a referendum among your friends. This is what is happening now in Spain (more or less)
      - logicallee 9y ago
        So, I actually didn't mention anything about the referendum at all. I was just using your example to point out that your attitude about the removal of an app means that "first-amendment" (free speech) issues aren't big in Europe. It has nothing to do with what the app (or referendum) says or doesn't say. It could be about anything. I was pointing out that you don't consider the forced removal of the app by the state to itself be a huge issue. It shows how strongly people feel about "free speech" in Europe: not at all. It's not part of the discussion or a relevant matter for you, as long as it's done lawfully.
        jorgemf 9y ago
        Because how this is being done is a completely mistake. They don't respect each other and do things against the law they supported before. But don't compare it with free speech, this is not what is happening now. I want an open dialog, not this bullshit. If you do something illegal you face the consequences, as this is completely illegal they faced them. Otherwise is that they open a public debate and discuss, talk with the people, negotiate the terms, etc. They could do things right like in Ireland, but they are not doing it. And the central government instead of open a dialog is closed completely to any type of dialog. Someone tries to open a dialog and they point at them and blame them. And they got more votes because of their attitude. So fight is served because politics don't want to talk and are making the people hate the other people. To sum up, the problem is how are they doing the things and that most population support both of them (each one their party) increasing the anger and the hate.
- euyyn 9y ago
  > If I'm mistaken, then which European country did you have in mind, which couldn't decide to do the same thing, because their respective institutions would strike down the law as unconstitutional (even if it had majority support)? You think the government of California can pass a law of secession and that law wouldn't be stroke down?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

Out of curiosity, why am I a imperialist-minded European? What makes you think so?

It's just that their comment was very surprising to me. Spain is obviously completely modern in every way and a full-size EU participant: therefore, their comment (and followup, "the law is the law") reveals that this structural protection for the idea of free speech, that there is something higher than the law, isn't baked into the structure of modern European democracies via a separated judicial branch or analogous institute of checks and balances. Instead, European democracies are apparently governed by law. If I'm mistaken, then which European country did you have in mind, which couldn't decide to do the same thing, because their respective institutions would strike down the law as unconstitutional (even if it had majority support)?

jorgemf 9y ago
1) It is a binding referendum (this is what some catalan politics say). It is not about what they think, but about what are they going to do. The binding part is what makes this completely illegal. 2) Some people don't take is seriously because it is against the law (there is a law which they can use to do a referendum like this but it needs support from central government and an open dialog that is not happening) 3) Catalans agree with the law. The Catalan court was who said this referendum was illegal. In any democracy you must govern by the law. The people chose the government and they make the laws. What is wrong with this? If you want a different government you vote something different, but Catalans are not doing this either. This process is not supported by some independist.
- logicallee 9y ago
  >In any democracy you must govern by the law. The people chose the government and they make the laws. What is wrong with this? you raise a good question and the answer is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority . That's why in America even if the majority support a law limiting speech, the supreme court will still strike down such a law - the State can't cause the removal of things like this app in America, lawfully; even if it has people's support. what is interesting is that I wouldn't have to explain this to someone else in America - it's part of what everyone already knows.
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    That is why you have a constitution. This referendum is against it and that is why is against the law. You cannot claim your city as independent of the country doing a referendum among your friends. This is what is happening now in Spain (more or less)
    - logicallee 9y ago
      So, I actually didn't mention anything about the referendum at all. I was just using your example to point out that your attitude about the removal of an app means that "first-amendment" (free speech) issues aren't big in Europe. It has nothing to do with what the app (or referendum) says or doesn't say. It could be about anything. I was pointing out that you don't consider the forced removal of the app by the state to itself be a huge issue. It shows how strongly people feel about "free speech" in Europe: not at all. It's not part of the discussion or a relevant matter for you, as long as it's done lawfully.
      - jorgemf 9y ago
        Because how this is being done is a completely mistake. They don't respect each other and do things against the law they supported before. But don't compare it with free speech, this is not what is happening now. I want an open dialog, not this bullshit. If you do something illegal you face the consequences, as this is completely illegal they faced them. Otherwise is that they open a public debate and discuss, talk with the people, negotiate the terms, etc. They could do things right like in Ireland, but they are not doing it. And the central government instead of open a dialog is closed completely to any type of dialog. Someone tries to open a dialog and they point at them and blame them. And they got more votes because of their attitude. So fight is served because politics don't want to talk and are making the people hate the other people. To sum up, the problem is how are they doing the things and that most population support both of them (each one their party) increasing the anger and the hate.
euyyn 9y ago
> If I'm mistaken, then which European country did you have in mind, which couldn't decide to do the same thing, because their respective institutions would strike down the law as unconstitutional (even if it had majority support)? You think the government of California can pass a law of secession and that law wouldn't be stroke down?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]