4 ms·

Well, it is normal since independentists have controlled Catalunya since 40 years ago. It used to be that 20% of the population was independentist through, now

Well, it is normal since independentists have controlled Catalunya since 40 years ago. It used to be that 20% of the population was independentist through, now is over 50%. For example, they choosed school principals among independentist so now over 85% of them are Catalan language teachers that tend to be independentist. This way kids could be directed to be independentist too. The same happened with the local media, TV3, newspapers like La Vanguardia. If you were not independent public funds were not given to you. Those private media without the public funding could not live on their own. Since 20 years ago they control education too, and kids are forced to speak Catalan as the main language, studing a very biased History full of lies like that Catalunuya was a reign in the past. They also put big sanctions on shops labeling things on Spanish until nobody dare. They brought nearly a million muslim people to Catalunya to work so they do not speak Spanish, like people from Spain or South America does. This makes it the higher terrorist risk area in all Spain, including Ceuta and Melilla. The problem was not independentist forces doing this, but the central gobertment that let this happen. Now with half the population(controlling Catalunya) against the other (supported by the Govertment) there is a significant risk of civil war there.

elecbit 9y ago
A Catalan here. Quite a bad description, I think. We should remember that Catalonia had its own language forbidden to even speak in the street for 40 years during Franco's dictatorship. Language and culture was kept alive thanks of people keeping it in secrecy. When "democracy" returned, some of the competences they had before the war were returned to the government. After 6 years of demonstrations of 2-3 million (out of 7million) asking to hold a referendum and receiving NO to any request, it was announced and proposed one year ago in order to agree it with Spanish government, but they would not even discuss it. In the end the unilateral way is the only way to hold this referendum. Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Isn't it democracy? People who doesn't want independence can say NO. Laws should serve people's desires, not forbid participation and opinion.
- euyyn 9y ago
  > Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Doesn't that happen all the time in polls and in local, regional, and general elections?
  - elecbit 9y ago
    Yes, and after last elections the majority of the Catalan parliament is pro-independence. Instead of proclaming independence, a referendum is proposed, which has the support of 80% of the population in Catalonia.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      Yeah I know that. The point I was trying to make is that the referendum wasn't deemed illegal because "the government of Catalonia isn't allowed to ask people's preferences". It is allowed and it happens all the time.
      - DigitalJack 9y ago
        You can do it your own way, if it is done just how I say.
        euyyn 9y ago
        Alternatively: You can do it your own way, as long as it doesn't conflict with the law. Like all other things in a democracy really.
- trosop 9y ago
  Another Catalan here, a Catalan that has lived in Italy and France. In the dictatorship Catalan was forbidden, but now Catalan in Catalonia is the only language used in schools (the teachers are told to only speak in that language even to the parents, search for "immersió lingüística"), the official buildings, hospital papers, and so on. Is this what you would call repression or not-democracy? Now, in Spain other languages (I am using the word languages again) are official, and they are the language the teachers use at schools. Do you know what they call other languages in France or Italy? dialects! They are not official, of course, nor used as official languages in schools or public buildings. So Spain is even more democratic than Italy and France in that issue, but people are complaining in Catalonia because of the adoctrination, and millions of euros spent by the Catalan government. Don't fool yourself. A referendum in a moment of maximum propaganda by the Catalan government is really democracy? The conservative Catalan government, as the conservative Spanish government, have a lot of cases of corruption, and since all this irrationality nobody is talking about that. Last week Spain freed two Catalan politicians from the current governing party from going to jail because of the Pretoria case, but almost nobody mentioned that. Do you really thing this chaos is not premeditated?
icebraining 9y ago
How is being "forced" to speak the local language any different than what any other schooling system does? Do Madrilenian schools allows kids to choose their primary language, now? They brought nearly a million muslim people to Catalunya to work Only ~520k Muslims live in Catalunya. Meanwhile, Andalucia has more than 300k and Madrid over 280k, so it's not like there's such a big difference. http://observatorio.hispanomuslim.es/estademograf.pdf http://observatorio.hispanomuslim.es/estademograf.pdf
- lottin 9y ago
  There has never been such a policy of promoting Muslim immigration in Catalonia. It's one of the many myths propagated by certain groups in Spain.
pera 9y ago
> studing a very biased History full of lies like that Catalunuya was a reign in the past. I'm not sure what do you mean but Catalonia was in fact a reign in the past (please correct me if I am wrong): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia
- euyyn 9y ago
  I guess he meant kingdom?
  - setzer22 9y ago
    Well, it did have kings, and their chronicles were written in Catalan[1]. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crònica_de_Ramon_Muntaner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crònica_de_Ramon_Muntaner
euyyn 9y ago
As a Spaniard, I don't think there's any risk of civil war at all. The most that can happen out of this all is a vote of no-confidence in Congress against the government if they overstep.
severino 9y ago
What you describe here happens not only in Catalonia, but in every other region of the world. Every government has its media, they control education in a way or another, etc. However, things get bad when your central government is perceived as acting against yourself in every single move they do. I agree with you about the risk of this confrontation getting worse. That's why I think a referendum should be made so people can express themselves. People's Party is against, of course. They feel pretty comfortable talking about nothing but Catalonia.
gotbeans 9y ago
> This way kids could be directed to be independentist too. Lived in Catalonia all my life, never had a teacher tell me any of the biases you are stating. I ought to think you are the one who was directed to think like that?
incompatible 9y ago
What does the population in the rest of Spain think about Catalan independence? Would they be happy with Catalonia leaving if its population was in favour of it, or would they prefer that it be forced to remain part of Spain? Catalonia would have trouble becoming genuinely independent without approval from Spain. Even if they declared independence, and didn't face military action, they'd only have the status of other unrecognized states like Somaliland or to some extent Taiwan.
- cloakandswagger 9y ago
  Catalonia is one of the highest earning areas of Spain, constituting about 20% of the nation's GDP. Their secession would be about as well received as New York or California's from the US.
  - incompatible 9y ago
    I have the impression that quite a few conservatives in the US would be thrilled to see New York and California leave, regardless of the economic implications.
    - cloakandswagger 9y ago
      I'm sure there are individual Spanish nationalists that think the same about Catalonia. Central governments, on the other hand, generally behave rationally (read: in their own interests) instead of emotionally.
      - qiv 9y ago
        No, the central government is as petty as it gets. For instance when the Canaries banned bull fighting a long time ago there was no problem, but when the Catalans did it recently the ban was overthrown by Spanish courts. Don't get me wrong, the Catalans did not bann it because it is not part of "their culture" or because it is cruel, they just did it to piss off Madrid :-) Also now for the referendum, the central government sent four thousand police officers in cruise ships to the port of Barcelona to prevent voting. Does not seem particularly grown up to me neither ...
farresito 9y ago
You have never lived in Catalonia, have you? Sad to read things like that. Sounds like the speech that the Spanish government gives every other week. Deplorable comment.
setzer22 9y ago
Are you implying that catalans brought muslims to work there and that now terrorism is because of that? Aren't you aware this is a global problem and that the catalan government had nothing to do with it? You shouldn't make such bold statements, less without providing any sort of evidence. I never felt the need to downvote in HN until I read this.

elecbit 9y ago

A Catalan here. Quite a bad description, I think. We should remember that Catalonia had its own language forbidden to even speak in the street for 40 years during Franco's dictatorship. Language and culture was kept alive thanks of people keeping it in secrecy. When "democracy" returned, some of the competences they had before the war were returned to the government. After 6 years of demonstrations of 2-3 million (out of 7million) asking to hold a referendum and receiving NO to any request, it was announced and proposed one year ago in order to agree it with Spanish government, but they would not even discuss it. In the end the unilateral way is the only way to hold this referendum. Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Isn't it democracy? People who doesn't want independence can say NO. Laws should serve people's desires, not forbid participation and opinion.

euyyn 9y ago
> Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Doesn't that happen all the time in polls and in local, regional, and general elections?
- elecbit 9y ago
  Yes, and after last elections the majority of the Catalan parliament is pro-independence. Instead of proclaming independence, a referendum is proposed, which has the support of 80% of the population in Catalonia.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    Yeah I know that. The point I was trying to make is that the referendum wasn't deemed illegal because "the government of Catalonia isn't allowed to ask people's preferences". It is allowed and it happens all the time.
    - DigitalJack 9y ago
      You can do it your own way, if it is done just how I say.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        Alternatively: You can do it your own way, as long as it doesn't conflict with the law. Like all other things in a democracy really.
trosop 9y ago
Another Catalan here, a Catalan that has lived in Italy and France. In the dictatorship Catalan was forbidden, but now Catalan in Catalonia is the only language used in schools (the teachers are told to only speak in that language even to the parents, search for "immersió lingüística"), the official buildings, hospital papers, and so on. Is this what you would call repression or not-democracy? Now, in Spain other languages (I am using the word languages again) are official, and they are the language the teachers use at schools. Do you know what they call other languages in France or Italy? dialects! They are not official, of course, nor used as official languages in schools or public buildings. So Spain is even more democratic than Italy and France in that issue, but people are complaining in Catalonia because of the adoctrination, and millions of euros spent by the Catalan government. Don't fool yourself. A referendum in a moment of maximum propaganda by the Catalan government is really democracy? The conservative Catalan government, as the conservative Spanish government, have a lot of cases of corruption, and since all this irrationality nobody is talking about that. Last week Spain freed two Catalan politicians from the current governing party from going to jail because of the Pretoria case, but almost nobody mentioned that. Do you really thing this chaos is not premeditated?

icebraining 9y ago

How is being "forced" to speak the local language any different than what any other schooling system does? Do Madrilenian schools allows kids to choose their primary language, now? They brought nearly a million muslim people to Catalunya to work Only ~520k Muslims live in Catalunya. Meanwhile, Andalucia has more than 300k and Madrid over 280k, so it's not like there's such a big difference. http://observatorio.hispanomuslim.es/estademograf.pdf http://observatorio.hispanomuslim.es/estademograf.pdf

lottin 9y ago
There has never been such a policy of promoting Muslim immigration in Catalonia. It's one of the many myths propagated by certain groups in Spain.

pera 9y ago

> studing a very biased History full of lies like that Catalunuya was a reign in the past. I'm not sure what do you mean but Catalonia was in fact a reign in the past (please correct me if I am wrong): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Catalonia

euyyn 9y ago
I guess he meant kingdom?
- setzer22 9y ago
  Well, it did have kings, and their chronicles were written in Catalan[1]. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crònica_de_Ramon_Muntaner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crònica_de_Ramon_Muntaner

euyyn 9y ago

As a Spaniard, I don't think there's any risk of civil war at all. The most that can happen out of this all is a vote of no-confidence in Congress against the government if they overstep.

severino 9y ago

What you describe here happens not only in Catalonia, but in every other region of the world. Every government has its media, they control education in a way or another, etc. However, things get bad when your central government is perceived as acting against yourself in every single move they do. I agree with you about the risk of this confrontation getting worse. That's why I think a referendum should be made so people can express themselves. People's Party is against, of course. They feel pretty comfortable talking about nothing but Catalonia.

gotbeans 9y ago

> This way kids could be directed to be independentist too. Lived in Catalonia all my life, never had a teacher tell me any of the biases you are stating. I ought to think you are the one who was directed to think like that?

incompatible 9y ago

What does the population in the rest of Spain think about Catalan independence? Would they be happy with Catalonia leaving if its population was in favour of it, or would they prefer that it be forced to remain part of Spain? Catalonia would have trouble becoming genuinely independent without approval from Spain. Even if they declared independence, and didn't face military action, they'd only have the status of other unrecognized states like Somaliland or to some extent Taiwan.

cloakandswagger 9y ago
Catalonia is one of the highest earning areas of Spain, constituting about 20% of the nation's GDP. Their secession would be about as well received as New York or California's from the US.
- incompatible 9y ago
  I have the impression that quite a few conservatives in the US would be thrilled to see New York and California leave, regardless of the economic implications.
  - cloakandswagger 9y ago
    I'm sure there are individual Spanish nationalists that think the same about Catalonia. Central governments, on the other hand, generally behave rationally (read: in their own interests) instead of emotionally.
    - qiv 9y ago
      No, the central government is as petty as it gets. For instance when the Canaries banned bull fighting a long time ago there was no problem, but when the Catalans did it recently the ban was overthrown by Spanish courts. Don't get me wrong, the Catalans did not bann it because it is not part of "their culture" or because it is cruel, they just did it to piss off Madrid :-) Also now for the referendum, the central government sent four thousand police officers in cruise ships to the port of Barcelona to prevent voting. Does not seem particularly grown up to me neither ...

farresito 9y ago

You have never lived in Catalonia, have you? Sad to read things like that. Sounds like the speech that the Spanish government gives every other week. Deplorable comment.

setzer22 9y ago

Are you implying that catalans brought muslims to work there and that now terrorism is because of that? Aren't you aware this is a global problem and that the catalan government had nothing to do with it? You shouldn't make such bold statements, less without providing any sort of evidence. I never felt the need to downvote in HN until I read this.