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The spanish government is trying to ban everything related to the referendum: physical urns, ballot papers, websites and apps, violating the most basic human ri

The spanish government is trying to ban everything related to the referendum: physical urns, ballot papers, websites and apps, violating the most basic human rights. However, for each ban, 10 new websites/apps/bots will pop up. I created a chatbot so that people can vote at referendumvirtual.cat and it went viral in the last 48h. People will always find ways to excercise freedom of expression and decide its own future in peace.

euyyn 9y ago
It's not the Spanish government, it's the Courts in Catalonia. These are orders from the judge in the Tribunal Superior de Justicia de Cataluña.
- lsaferite 9y ago
  Who seems to be backing the Spanish government in suppressing the referendum.
  - 627467 9y ago
    You seem to imply that backing the ref or independence is unanimous or that the Catalan courts are arbitrarily following the bidding of Madrid.
    - lsaferite 9y ago
      I have no skin in the game, but I think that in a democracy if you forbid the people from at least expressing a yes/no on whether they should continue to be governed by the group currently governing them, you are breeding discontent. If a democracy is nominally a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, then the legitimacy of the government is driven by the continued support of the citizens. If a portion (or region) of your populous wants to no longer be collectively governed by the current group and would instead rather form their own government more attuned to their needs, why not at least let them find out if the other people in their group agree? I personally think any democratic government should allow for succession. So, to your point, perhaps the judge is just 100% about following the law, even if they disagree. They could just as well be a 'stay' voter imposing their will on others. In either case, the underlying laws that are forbidding the vote, binding or not, are what I find objectionable. But again, I have no skin in that particular game and am just a bystander.
      - skytreader 9y ago
        > I personally think any democratic government should allow for succession. Nitpicking but considering the context of the news item, I think you meant "secession". Edit distance of 2 but makes a lot of difference in the meaning of your sentence.
        lsaferite 9y ago
        You are indeed correct. How embarrassing. :/
      - bkohlmann 9y ago
        I'm torn on this, and I think in general your statements make sense. However, you're also arguing that the South in 1861 should've been allowed to secede, or at least have an unemcumbered plebiscite. Or the Kurds should be allowed to leave Iraq, which may set off regional catastrophe. Is that an accurate reading?
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        I would agree with your reading and at the same time I also think it is morally sound to go to war with the South to free up the slaves from the South.
        mattnewton 9y ago
        The south was allowed to assemble, talk and vote on it, but the north didn't recognize the secession as legitimate. Those are separate issues.
        JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        Catalonia has been allowed to discuss. It’s just the referendum, as I understand it, that is being banned. I’m trying to think what would happen if California passed an independence referendum whose results were then nullified by the Supreme Court.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    The judge in Catalonia doesn't mind what it seems to you or anyone: her job is to interpret and apply the law. As the Supreme Court did, e.g., when they sent a Ministro del Interior to prison. The law isn't written by the Spanish government either, it's written by Congress. A Congress in which nationalistic parties have more representation per number of voters than other parties with a higher number of total voters. Insinuations that the judges in Catalonia are puppets of the Spanish government ignore the reality of Spain.
    - ChristianBundy 9y ago
      Are you implying that Congress isn't part of the Spanish government?
      - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
        don't reply to that
      - euyyn 9y ago
        Oh my god of course it's not, unless by government you mean something broader than the executive branch, in which case you have to include the judiciary too. The three separate powers is the foundation of western democracies.
        roywiggins 9y ago
        This is a US/Euro nomenclature difference I think. In the US "the government" refers to the entire apparatus- all three branches.
        cucuuc 9y ago
        No, it doesn’t. It refers to the executive. Whenever we complain about the poor quality of government, (the VA, DMV,) we’re complaining about an organ of the executive (be it federal, state or municipal). In fact the word govern implies executive.
  - kgwgk 9y ago
    Judges siding with the law doesn’t seem surprising, does it?
    - lsaferite 9y ago
      Well, their job is to interpret the law and weigh in on it's validity. They have a lot of leeway in that task honestly. Unfortunately, they are not immune from politics.
  - pfortuny 9y ago
    You could also say that tbey are applying the existing law...
jorgemf 9y ago
I am one of the persons who think this is not the way to do the things and there should be an open debate. (and also that both sides are wrong right now). As we lack of this open debate about the independence I am interested to know your opinion about it, as how independent Cataluña wants to be. Does it want to be an associate state, or a completely independent state (that would also need to enter the Europena Union by its own)? This is something it is still not clear for me, and I have the feeling that some politics don't want to discuss it because their goal is to get rid of corruption trials and with any independence they will achieve it.
- Osmium 9y ago
  > Does it want to be an associate state, or a completely independent state (that would also need to enter the Europena Union by its own)? This is something it is still not clear for me, Hmm, maybe if you want to know what the people of Cataluña want, maybe we should ask them? Perhaps by holding a referendum to get their views on the matter? (Note that a similar situation in Scotland was addressed by doing exactly this. The referendum was done begrudgingly, and certainly was not popular in Westminster, but it did happen, as it should have -- even though I'm personally glad they voted to remain.)
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    I am asking directly a catalan because our country didn't want to have that debate. This is a binding referendum, they have other open referendums before with low participacion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref... ), in none of them the question I am making was made that clear.
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      The question couldn't be clearer. I'm not sure where the confusion comes from? Is that how bad are people in Spain informed these days? Question: Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state in the form of a republic?
euyyn 9y ago
> I created a chatbot so that people can vote at referendumvirtual.cat and it went viral in the last 48h. By the way, nice bot! I loved that it lets you pick a language. I'm using all this fuss myself as a chance to learn Catalan.

euyyn 9y ago

It's not the Spanish government, it's the Courts in Catalonia. These are orders from the judge in the Tribunal Superior de Justicia de Cataluña.

lsaferite 9y ago
Who seems to be backing the Spanish government in suppressing the referendum.
- 627467 9y ago
  You seem to imply that backing the ref or independence is unanimous or that the Catalan courts are arbitrarily following the bidding of Madrid.
  - lsaferite 9y ago
    I have no skin in the game, but I think that in a democracy if you forbid the people from at least expressing a yes/no on whether they should continue to be governed by the group currently governing them, you are breeding discontent. If a democracy is nominally a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, then the legitimacy of the government is driven by the continued support of the citizens. If a portion (or region) of your populous wants to no longer be collectively governed by the current group and would instead rather form their own government more attuned to their needs, why not at least let them find out if the other people in their group agree? I personally think any democratic government should allow for succession. So, to your point, perhaps the judge is just 100% about following the law, even if they disagree. They could just as well be a 'stay' voter imposing their will on others. In either case, the underlying laws that are forbidding the vote, binding or not, are what I find objectionable. But again, I have no skin in that particular game and am just a bystander.
    - skytreader 9y ago
      > I personally think any democratic government should allow for succession. Nitpicking but considering the context of the news item, I think you meant "secession". Edit distance of 2 but makes a lot of difference in the meaning of your sentence.
      - lsaferite 9y ago
        You are indeed correct. How embarrassing. :/
    - bkohlmann 9y ago
      I'm torn on this, and I think in general your statements make sense. However, you're also arguing that the South in 1861 should've been allowed to secede, or at least have an unemcumbered plebiscite. Or the Kurds should be allowed to leave Iraq, which may set off regional catastrophe. Is that an accurate reading?
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        I would agree with your reading and at the same time I also think it is morally sound to go to war with the South to free up the slaves from the South.
      - mattnewton 9y ago
        The south was allowed to assemble, talk and vote on it, but the north didn't recognize the secession as legitimate. Those are separate issues.
        JumpCrisscross 9y ago
        Catalonia has been allowed to discuss. It’s just the referendum, as I understand it, that is being banned. I’m trying to think what would happen if California passed an independence referendum whose results were then nullified by the Supreme Court.
- euyyn 9y ago
  The judge in Catalonia doesn't mind what it seems to you or anyone: her job is to interpret and apply the law. As the Supreme Court did, e.g., when they sent a Ministro del Interior to prison. The law isn't written by the Spanish government either, it's written by Congress. A Congress in which nationalistic parties have more representation per number of voters than other parties with a higher number of total voters. Insinuations that the judges in Catalonia are puppets of the Spanish government ignore the reality of Spain.
  - ChristianBundy 9y ago
    Are you implying that Congress isn't part of the Spanish government?
    - ringaroundthetx 9y ago
      don't reply to that
    - euyyn 9y ago
      Oh my god of course it's not, unless by government you mean something broader than the executive branch, in which case you have to include the judiciary too. The three separate powers is the foundation of western democracies.
      - roywiggins 9y ago
        This is a US/Euro nomenclature difference I think. In the US "the government" refers to the entire apparatus- all three branches.
        cucuuc 9y ago
        No, it doesn’t. It refers to the executive. Whenever we complain about the poor quality of government, (the VA, DMV,) we’re complaining about an organ of the executive (be it federal, state or municipal). In fact the word govern implies executive.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  Judges siding with the law doesn’t seem surprising, does it?
  - lsaferite 9y ago
    Well, their job is to interpret the law and weigh in on it's validity. They have a lot of leeway in that task honestly. Unfortunately, they are not immune from politics.
- pfortuny 9y ago
  You could also say that tbey are applying the existing law...

jorgemf 9y ago

I am one of the persons who think this is not the way to do the things and there should be an open debate. (and also that both sides are wrong right now). As we lack of this open debate about the independence I am interested to know your opinion about it, as how independent Cataluña wants to be. Does it want to be an associate state, or a completely independent state (that would also need to enter the Europena Union by its own)? This is something it is still not clear for me, and I have the feeling that some politics don't want to discuss it because their goal is to get rid of corruption trials and with any independence they will achieve it.

Osmium 9y ago
> Does it want to be an associate state, or a completely independent state (that would also need to enter the Europena Union by its own)? This is something it is still not clear for me, Hmm, maybe if you want to know what the people of Cataluña want, maybe we should ask them? Perhaps by holding a referendum to get their views on the matter? (Note that a similar situation in Scotland was addressed by doing exactly this. The referendum was done begrudgingly, and certainly was not popular in Westminster, but it did happen, as it should have -- even though I'm personally glad they voted to remain.)
- jorgemf 9y ago
  I am asking directly a catalan because our country didn't want to have that debate. This is a binding referendum, they have other open referendums before with low participacion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_ref... ), in none of them the question I am making was made that clear.
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    The question couldn't be clearer. I'm not sure where the confusion comes from? Is that how bad are people in Spain informed these days? Question: Do you want Catalonia to be an independent state in the form of a republic?

euyyn 9y ago

> I created a chatbot so that people can vote at referendumvirtual.cat and it went viral in the last 48h. By the way, nice bot! I loved that it lets you pick a language. I'm using all this fuss myself as a chance to learn Catalan.