5 ms·

So? If they want independence who are we to deny it? If your spouse wants a divorce, if your children wish to disown you — you can't deny them just because it'

by ukoki 9y ago

So? If they want independence who are we to deny it? If your spouse wants a divorce, if your children wish to disown you — you can't deny them just because it's an inconvenience — it is their right.

QAPereo 9y ago
Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. So, why deny independence? Because only the optics have changed, not the reality?
- wav-part 9y ago
  > Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. IMO that has not been true for last 70 yrs. Point to me a war that has been People vs People. The fact of the current world is People Are Sovereign. If some >=N people domiciled in continuous region wants self-determination, thats their human right.
  - kgwgk 9y ago
    I suspect that those who want to separate Catalonia from the rest of the country wouldn’t agree with the human right of the people in the Barcelona metropolitan are to choose by themselves their own future...
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      They do agree though. Barcelona, Aran, whatever. You name it. Just start the political movement and it'll be respected. I think it's a fair ask.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        It won't be respected by all, not even by all ERC politicians. Don't fall into the trap of thinking Catalonia is somehow free of hypocrites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Ok. By the way, can I get your crystal ball? There's this lottery thing...
        euyyn 9y ago
        Your mocking argument is that only magicians can expect people to maintain their views?
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        My mocking argument is that you're making a wild guess. Aran has its rights explicitly recognised by Catalan Parliament, including their self determination rights, right now: https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2015/01/23/catalunya/1422013790_558846.html https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2015/01/23/catalunya/1422013790_5... Rahola hasn't been a politician for decades. ERC is much better than it was with her and Angel Colom.
- kristiandupont 9y ago
  True, countries are not people. But you "optics, not reality has changed" argument is very abstract. What is this reality that means that they should not be allowed to vote?
pvaldes 9y ago
And if my children would want to commit suicide, steal and crash cars, or enter in a sect; who am I to deny them such reasonable demands? ... their loving father or something? for Pete's sake, you, bad parent, they have rights!, and politicians that advise them well! Break the law, my minions, is funny (Specially to me, when I'll run with your money and deny to even know you... fools).
- kristiandupont 9y ago
  So you are arguing that this is solely for Cataluñas own sake and that they don't know themselves what they are doing so Spain must protect them?
  - freshhawk 9y ago
    I mean, at this point do we need to clarify? Yes, the commenter is a fascist and yes that is basically what they believe, although it would be more about the rule of law than any kind of protection.
  - pvaldes 9y ago
    Dunno... Is the duty of the government from your nation to protect you?. (tip: the correct answer starts with Y, but not for the spurious reasons that you claim. Is because, as citizen of your country, you have some constitutional rights. No matter if you are super-smart or a frozen cabbage sending your 11yo children to a warfield). Any nation must try to protect their citizens all the time (even from themselves if were the case). Spain is not different in that sense to any other country. Sometimes is not possible, sadly.
euyyn 9y ago
Unlike a spouse which is one person with a single will and identity, it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this.
- enriquto 9y ago
  > it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this. All residents in Catalonia have the right to vote in this referendum, regardless of their origin. So your comment is basically empty.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    The fact that it is how this referendum was designed doesn't mean it's fair. E.g. why would a foreigner that's been living in Catalonia for a few weeks, and plans to move away within a month to never return, have more of a say than a Catalan that spent 40 years there but had to move abroad two months ago in search of a job?
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      That's not how it works. You might want to read about it before having an opinion on a straw man. For the record: Spaniards living in Catalonia for at least 6 months can vote. Foreigners can't, like in General or Regional elections.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        I was basing it on what the parent commenter said. I can't really tell if he's in the wrong or you are because, as you said, I haven't looked it up myself. Even with your version my fairness argument stands. How is it fair that a Catalan expat isn't allowed to vote, and an Andalusian that might be there just for a few months is? Expats are certainly allowed to vote in General elections.
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
pvaldes 9y ago
This analogy is repeated again and again but is a bad example. A divorce is not "a right", is an agreement regulated by law between two previously married people to put a legal end to the relationship. The true fact is that I can't divorce from my wife without her permit and she could not divorce from me without me agreeing to sign the divorce papers. Does not match the case of one part splitting unilaterally. A better term for this case would be marital abandonment, and a even better term would be family abuse. There is not such thing like a "right to desert your family keeping the house for yourself only".
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  Historically, has the federal government pumped more resources into Catalonia than it extracted from it, or the other way around?
  - plafl 9y ago
    Maybe it's not zero-sum
    - oh_sigh 9y ago
      Sure, it probably is. But if that is the case, the answer is even more straight forward: Separation is okay.
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    There's no federal government, it's not a federation. Historically the central government has extracted money and resources from Catalonia. Catalonia was one of the first regions in Spain to develop its industry and definitely the strongest on that: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_España https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_Esp... These days it is widely accepted that the Catalan people send 16 billion per year to Spain that are never returned. That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't because our infrastructures are underfunded and only around 35% of the budgeted investments were actually executed: http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infraestructuras-catalunya-2016_162615_102.html http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infra... But this is not just an economic grievance. The issue is way more complex and includes (but not restricted to) language, cultural and respect issues. Edit: This comment is now at 0. Please argue instead of downvoting. You're breaking HN's rules.

by ukoki 9y ago

QAPereo 9y ago

Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. So, why deny independence? Because only the optics have changed, not the reality?

wav-part 9y ago
> Countries are not people, they don't respect or love each other, they oscillate between peace and war. The history of every major nation is a history of violence and conquest, not freely entered union. IMO that has not been true for last 70 yrs. Point to me a war that has been People vs People. The fact of the current world is People Are Sovereign. If some >=N people domiciled in continuous region wants self-determination, thats their human right.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  I suspect that those who want to separate Catalonia from the rest of the country wouldn’t agree with the human right of the people in the Barcelona metropolitan are to choose by themselves their own future...
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    They do agree though. Barcelona, Aran, whatever. You name it. Just start the political movement and it'll be respected. I think it's a fair ask.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      It won't be respected by all, not even by all ERC politicians. Don't fall into the trap of thinking Catalonia is somehow free of hypocrites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnMA7KdGxn0
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        Ok. By the way, can I get your crystal ball? There's this lottery thing...
        euyyn 9y ago
        Your mocking argument is that only magicians can expect people to maintain their views?
        NetStrikeForce 9y ago
        My mocking argument is that you're making a wild guess. Aran has its rights explicitly recognised by Catalan Parliament, including their self determination rights, right now: https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2015/01/23/catalunya/1422013790_558846.html https://cat.elpais.com/cat/2015/01/23/catalunya/1422013790_5... Rahola hasn't been a politician for decades. ERC is much better than it was with her and Angel Colom.
kristiandupont 9y ago
True, countries are not people. But you "optics, not reality has changed" argument is very abstract. What is this reality that means that they should not be allowed to vote?

pvaldes 9y ago

And if my children would want to commit suicide, steal and crash cars, or enter in a sect; who am I to deny them such reasonable demands? ... their loving father or something? for Pete's sake, you, bad parent, they have rights!, and politicians that advise them well! Break the law, my minions, is funny (Specially to me, when I'll run with your money and deny to even know you... fools).

kristiandupont 9y ago
So you are arguing that this is solely for Cataluñas own sake and that they don't know themselves what they are doing so Spain must protect them?
- freshhawk 9y ago
  I mean, at this point do we need to clarify? Yes, the commenter is a fascist and yes that is basically what they believe, although it would be more about the rule of law than any kind of protection.
- pvaldes 9y ago
  Dunno... Is the duty of the government from your nation to protect you?. (tip: the correct answer starts with Y, but not for the spurious reasons that you claim. Is because, as citizen of your country, you have some constitutional rights. No matter if you are super-smart or a frozen cabbage sending your 11yo children to a warfield). Any nation must try to protect their citizens all the time (even from themselves if were the case). Spain is not different in that sense to any other country. Sometimes is not possible, sadly.

euyyn 9y ago

Unlike a spouse which is one person with a single will and identity, it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this.

enriquto 9y ago
> it's not even clear how to decide who is Catalan enough to have a vote in this. All residents in Catalonia have the right to vote in this referendum, regardless of their origin. So your comment is basically empty.
- euyyn 9y ago
  The fact that it is how this referendum was designed doesn't mean it's fair. E.g. why would a foreigner that's been living in Catalonia for a few weeks, and plans to move away within a month to never return, have more of a say than a Catalan that spent 40 years there but had to move abroad two months ago in search of a job?
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    That's not how it works. You might want to read about it before having an opinion on a straw man. For the record: Spaniards living in Catalonia for at least 6 months can vote. Foreigners can't, like in General or Regional elections.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      I was basing it on what the parent commenter said. I can't really tell if he's in the wrong or you are because, as you said, I haven't looked it up myself. Even with your version my fairness argument stands. How is it fair that a Catalan expat isn't allowed to vote, and an Andalusian that might be there just for a few months is? Expats are certainly allowed to vote in General elections.
      - NetStrikeForce 9y ago

pvaldes 9y ago

This analogy is repeated again and again but is a bad example. A divorce is not "a right", is an agreement regulated by law between two previously married people to put a legal end to the relationship. The true fact is that I can't divorce from my wife without her permit and she could not divorce from me without me agreeing to sign the divorce papers. Does not match the case of one part splitting unilaterally. A better term for this case would be marital abandonment, and a even better term would be family abuse. There is not such thing like a "right to desert your family keeping the house for yourself only".

oh_sigh 9y ago
Historically, has the federal government pumped more resources into Catalonia than it extracted from it, or the other way around?
- plafl 9y ago
  Maybe it's not zero-sum
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    Sure, it probably is. But if that is the case, the answer is even more straight forward: Separation is okay.
- NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  There's no federal government, it's not a federation. Historically the central government has extracted money and resources from Catalonia. Catalonia was one of the first regions in Spain to develop its industry and definitely the strongest on that: https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_España https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolución_industrial_en_Esp... These days it is widely accepted that the Catalan people send 16 billion per year to Spain that are never returned. That wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't because our infrastructures are underfunded and only around 35% of the budgeted investments were actually executed: http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infraestructuras-catalunya-2016_162615_102.html http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/estado-ejecucion-infra... But this is not just an economic grievance. The issue is way more complex and includes (but not restricted to) language, cultural and respect issues. Edit: This comment is now at 0. Please argue instead of downvoting. You're breaking HN's rules.