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It is completely feasible. In fact Spain was the project of many different kingdoms (or "nations" by modern standards): Basque, Aragon/Catalan, Galician and Cas

It is completely feasible. In fact Spain was the project of many different kingdoms (or "nations" by modern standards): Basque, Aragon/Catalan, Galician and Castilian. Not only that but many modern leftist political parties advocate for self determination freedom within our constitution. So the fact that the Catalan parliament with a simple majority of separatists are claiming unilateral referendum of independence in a free country is just to gather momentum.

kilburn 9y ago
Come on jsdario... It is indeed possible to change the constution, but: 1) You need 3/5ths of the camera to do so. 2) There is only one significant state-wide party supporting self determination (podemos, which a very young party that entered the scene only in the last election). 3) The major parties (PP and PSOE, which would be like the republicans and democrats in the state) are both overtly against self determination. In any case, having to change the constitution amounts to having to get the support of 3/5ths of spain. This is hardly self-determination, don't you think?
- jsdario 9y ago
  I may agree it's really hard, but the response is accurate. It is still possible. These kind of restrictions exist to defend people of tyranny. The same restrictions exists in Catalonian Parliament for things such as changing the "Estatut". It is not right for a simple majority to enforce their will over the people their opposition represent. Therefore the referendum is not legal, nor legitimate.
  - elecbit 9y ago
    Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is. So willing to vote and say goodbye to this bla-bla-bla-this is not legal, that is not legal. Good bye opressors. My deceased family in the war the dicator won will be really happy if we can finally separate. Too many open wounds you have never tried to heal.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      > Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. It's easier to separate Communists from non-Communists, because each of us gets to vote to only one party, than Catalans from non-Catalans. And even though Communists are a clear minority in Spain, you'd be hard pressed to find one that equates "not having a majority in Congress" with "being victims of a tyranny". If your family lived under the dictatorship, you should be sensitive to what they (and many others) suffered and fought, to not use lightly words like oppression and tyranny.
      - elecbit 9y ago
        The problem here is that all the inheritants of the Franco dictatorship and their mentailty are still in the power, thanks to the Spanish transition in which the Dictator passed the power to the King. Then promoted a bi-party politics where the minorities would never be able to change anything. It is not fair and Catalonia is fighting (again) to change it.
        euyyn 9y ago
        After Franco, Spain has been governed for 6 years by centrists, 21 years by socialists, and 14 years by the PP. The fantasy of "the Transición didn't take the francoists off the power" would need the likes of Felipe Gonzalez be "mentally francoist". It's no more than a feel-good fantasy. The fact that you need to convince the majority to change something, while individuals are constitutionally protected, is really how democracies work. If anything, nationalist minorities have wielded much more power in the Spanish Congress than other minorities with more voters, due to quirks of our electoral law.
    - lederhosen 9y ago
      So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spain? Where would this end (maybe there are pockets within the pockets within the pockets)? It is a practical shitty situation. Do not make it sound SIMPLE. Do not use the word tyranny when it does not apply. And the rich leaving the poor seems like a right wing thing to do. Maybe Franco would agree that the smaller "upper class" need protection from the tyranny of the poor. Or maybe money is not the biggest part of the equation, maybe it is just a nationalistic disgrace of the same kind that forced Castilian as language onto Basques and Catalans during Franco. Maybe we will get a Franco like situation in Catalonia where minorities are not allowed to teach/speak Castilian. I think that would be a disgrace for every decent person killed by the butchers of Franco and other "nationalists". And what is the lesson to learn from all this, should all nations start to force minorities to speak the national language just because if we give minorities relative freedom and power they will claim independence? And possibly treat our minorities left bad?
pipio21 9y ago
Not true. Spain was the union of three kingdoms: Castilla, Aragon and Navarra. In fact you can see it in the flag, it has a shield with the chains of Navarra, the lion of Leon, the Castle of Castilla and the colors of Aragon(which are the same of Spain and Catalunya flag) over a Granada fruit(for Granada conquest). Basque was never a kingdom,either Galicia or Catalunya. Asturias was a kingdom, later becoming Asturias and Leon kingdom, then growing again and again against the muslims in Alandalus. To say that Basque was a kingdom is an enormous lie that unfortunately is told in Basque country as they control their own education. My grandfather was Basque, he spoke Batua, the original Basque language in his village. He could not speak complex abstractions or communicate with people in villages 40 kms away as every batua was different. The language was unified less than 100 years ago(with the abstractions simply being invented at this time)and called euskera, a recent invention. Now kids there are brainwashed being told that this was the language that people spoke 3000 years ago. The places in Spain that after industrialization are rich are rewriting History in order to look better themselves, specially if you are nationalist.
- kgwgk 9y ago
  > My grandfather was Basque, he spoke Batua, the original Basque language in his village [...] The language was unified less than 100 years ago [...] Actually “batua” means “unified” and is the name given to the modern variant that you talk about.
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    And that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the non-sense that comment spouted. Getting something so basic that wrong... Geez.
    - anthk 9y ago
      These people in my country are called just fascists. Or retards, realistically. Because the "batua" is based on the Navarrese-Gipuzkoan subdialect. Kinda like "castellano normativo de la RAE" and "castellano de Castilla". Inb4: a Basque here.
Oletros 9y ago
> It is completely feasible. Not true with PP having more than 1/3 of the Congress seats

kilburn 9y ago

Come on jsdario... It is indeed possible to change the constution, but: 1) You need 3/5ths of the camera to do so. 2) There is only one significant state-wide party supporting self determination (podemos, which a very young party that entered the scene only in the last election). 3) The major parties (PP and PSOE, which would be like the republicans and democrats in the state) are both overtly against self determination. In any case, having to change the constitution amounts to having to get the support of 3/5ths of spain. This is hardly self-determination, don't you think?

jsdario 9y ago
I may agree it's really hard, but the response is accurate. It is still possible. These kind of restrictions exist to defend people of tyranny. The same restrictions exists in Catalonian Parliament for things such as changing the "Estatut". It is not right for a simple majority to enforce their will over the people their opposition represent. Therefore the referendum is not legal, nor legitimate.
- elecbit 9y ago
  Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. Hear yourself: "the referendum is not legal". Such a nice view of what democracy is. So willing to vote and say goodbye to this bla-bla-bla-this is not legal, that is not legal. Good bye opressors. My deceased family in the war the dicator won will be really happy if we can finally separate. Too many open wounds you have never tried to heal.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    > Tyranny is a group not allowing another group to decide what to do. It's easier to separate Communists from non-Communists, because each of us gets to vote to only one party, than Catalans from non-Catalans. And even though Communists are a clear minority in Spain, you'd be hard pressed to find one that equates "not having a majority in Congress" with "being victims of a tyranny". If your family lived under the dictatorship, you should be sensitive to what they (and many others) suffered and fought, to not use lightly words like oppression and tyranny.
    - elecbit 9y ago
      The problem here is that all the inheritants of the Franco dictatorship and their mentailty are still in the power, thanks to the Spanish transition in which the Dictator passed the power to the King. Then promoted a bi-party politics where the minorities would never be able to change anything. It is not fair and Catalonia is fighting (again) to change it.
      - euyyn 9y ago
        After Franco, Spain has been governed for 6 years by centrists, 21 years by socialists, and 14 years by the PP. The fantasy of "the Transición didn't take the francoists off the power" would need the likes of Felipe Gonzalez be "mentally francoist". It's no more than a feel-good fantasy. The fact that you need to convince the majority to change something, while individuals are constitutionally protected, is really how democracies work. If anything, nationalist minorities have wielded much more power in the Spanish Congress than other minorities with more voters, due to quirks of our electoral law.
  - lederhosen 9y ago
    So if they succeed to split would you call it tyranny not to let pockets of Castilian speaking minority areas in Catalonia claim independence? Maybe joining Spain? Where would this end (maybe there are pockets within the pockets within the pockets)? It is a practical shitty situation. Do not make it sound SIMPLE. Do not use the word tyranny when it does not apply. And the rich leaving the poor seems like a right wing thing to do. Maybe Franco would agree that the smaller "upper class" need protection from the tyranny of the poor. Or maybe money is not the biggest part of the equation, maybe it is just a nationalistic disgrace of the same kind that forced Castilian as language onto Basques and Catalans during Franco. Maybe we will get a Franco like situation in Catalonia where minorities are not allowed to teach/speak Castilian. I think that would be a disgrace for every decent person killed by the butchers of Franco and other "nationalists". And what is the lesson to learn from all this, should all nations start to force minorities to speak the national language just because if we give minorities relative freedom and power they will claim independence? And possibly treat our minorities left bad?

pipio21 9y ago

Not true. Spain was the union of three kingdoms: Castilla, Aragon and Navarra. In fact you can see it in the flag, it has a shield with the chains of Navarra, the lion of Leon, the Castle of Castilla and the colors of Aragon(which are the same of Spain and Catalunya flag) over a Granada fruit(for Granada conquest). Basque was never a kingdom,either Galicia or Catalunya. Asturias was a kingdom, later becoming Asturias and Leon kingdom, then growing again and again against the muslims in Alandalus. To say that Basque was a kingdom is an enormous lie that unfortunately is told in Basque country as they control their own education. My grandfather was Basque, he spoke Batua, the original Basque language in his village. He could not speak complex abstractions or communicate with people in villages 40 kms away as every batua was different. The language was unified less than 100 years ago(with the abstractions simply being invented at this time)and called euskera, a recent invention. Now kids there are brainwashed being told that this was the language that people spoke 3000 years ago. The places in Spain that after industrialization are rich are rewriting History in order to look better themselves, specially if you are nationalist.

kgwgk 9y ago
> My grandfather was Basque, he spoke Batua, the original Basque language in his village [...] The language was unified less than 100 years ago [...] Actually “batua” means “unified” and is the name given to the modern variant that you talk about.
- NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  And that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the non-sense that comment spouted. Getting something so basic that wrong... Geez.
  - anthk 9y ago
    These people in my country are called just fascists. Or retards, realistically. Because the "batua" is based on the Navarrese-Gipuzkoan subdialect. Kinda like "castellano normativo de la RAE" and "castellano de Castilla". Inb4: a Basque here.

Oletros 9y ago

> It is completely feasible. Not true with PP having more than 1/3 of the Congress seats