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>We have a Spain-wide constitution. The Catalan government decided it has a democratic mandate by the people of its region to not abide by it. The NORMAL reacti

>We have a Spain-wide constitution. The Catalan government decided it has a democratic mandate by the people of its region to not abide by it. The NORMAL reaction by the state is to apply it, and stop the Catalan government from breaking it. It's only oppresive insofar laws and the judicial system are opressive. Of course, the American Revolution was also illegal by the laws of the British. It's also oppressive in the sense of trying to rule people without their consent. If you try to let people choose, but the other side says no, what's there left to do?

tcard 9y ago
I'm not even arguing the Catalan government actions aren't _justified_, as the American Revolution may have been. My point is that the Spanish judiciary's reaction is just that of a normal, European, liberal democratic state under rule of law. (It's my opinion that it's _not_ justified, though: there's a fair chance of getting through the necessary changes to allow a referendum and other self-government demands by following legal procedures, given the current Spain-wide political climate. I believe this is mainly a politically dishonest and populist move by the Catalan government. But that's besides the point.)
- NetStrikeForce 9y ago
  No, it's not a reaction most liberal democracies in the EU would have. MPs all over Europe (Denmark, Switzerland, Finland to name a few) have asked the Spanish government to stop prosecuting and negotiate a referendum.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    MPs in Spain have asked the same. Doesn't mean those other countries wouldn't have their judges apply the law. Not only it is the judge's job: it's not even legal for a judge to knowingly allow an illegal action.
    - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
      The point is those other countries would have allowed the vote. We don't even have to imagine. It happened recently: Scotland. Or if you allow me to jump the pond: Québec. Also, indyref not ruled illegal yet so it might not be that clear cut.
      - Oletros 9y ago
        If you think France would allow the vote you don't know much about France
pm90 9y ago
> If you try to let people choose, but the other side says no, what's there left to do? Not much really. I think its really stupid of the Spanish Govt. to try to stick to formal constitutional means when there is a genuine, popular mandate for independence. What they seem to be saying is that a referendum is not allowed by current laws so it is illegal to have it. And their ham handed response is only agitating the region even more, legitimizing the separatists call for independence. OTOH if they had provided a path for an actual referendum to be held, provided democratic means for allowing independence... who knows? Maybe there wouldn't be a popular mandate in the referendum. Maybe the central government could have worked closely with those people, parties and cities that wanted to continue being part of Spain and convinced more. Its seems really rich of the Spanish govt. to claim they are following democratic processes to enforce a very undemocratic rule. They seem to be playing with semantics to enforce their will. Disclaimer: Total outsider view, I'm neither from Spain or Catalan nor have I ever visited. My opinions are based solely on news reports.
- gpvos 9y ago
  > there is a genuine, popular mandate for independence That remains to be seen. There are still less than 50% proponents of independence, according to what I read. The recent Spanish actions may have increased that number though.
  - pm90 9y ago
    That is exactly the point I am trying to make. If the Spanish Central Government had handled this better, it probably could have convinced more Catalan against independence. But its actions have antagonized more and it doesn't look like it will end well.
Romo 9y ago
This is when politics should take over. In politics you can negotiate. Not the case for courts who must apply the rules. The big mistake here was trying to solve a political issue with the law.

tcard 9y ago

I'm not even arguing the Catalan government actions aren't _justified_, as the American Revolution may have been. My point is that the Spanish judiciary's reaction is just that of a normal, European, liberal democratic state under rule of law. (It's my opinion that it's _not_ justified, though: there's a fair chance of getting through the necessary changes to allow a referendum and other self-government demands by following legal procedures, given the current Spain-wide political climate. I believe this is mainly a politically dishonest and populist move by the Catalan government. But that's besides the point.)

NetStrikeForce 9y ago
No, it's not a reaction most liberal democracies in the EU would have. MPs all over Europe (Denmark, Switzerland, Finland to name a few) have asked the Spanish government to stop prosecuting and negotiate a referendum.
- euyyn 9y ago
  MPs in Spain have asked the same. Doesn't mean those other countries wouldn't have their judges apply the law. Not only it is the judge's job: it's not even legal for a judge to knowingly allow an illegal action.
  - NetStrikeForce 9y ago
    The point is those other countries would have allowed the vote. We don't even have to imagine. It happened recently: Scotland. Or if you allow me to jump the pond: Québec. Also, indyref not ruled illegal yet so it might not be that clear cut.
    - Oletros 9y ago
      If you think France would allow the vote you don't know much about France

pm90 9y ago

> If you try to let people choose, but the other side says no, what's there left to do? Not much really. I think its really stupid of the Spanish Govt. to try to stick to formal constitutional means when there is a genuine, popular mandate for independence. What they seem to be saying is that a referendum is not allowed by current laws so it is illegal to have it. And their ham handed response is only agitating the region even more, legitimizing the separatists call for independence. OTOH if they had provided a path for an actual referendum to be held, provided democratic means for allowing independence... who knows? Maybe there wouldn't be a popular mandate in the referendum. Maybe the central government could have worked closely with those people, parties and cities that wanted to continue being part of Spain and convinced more. Its seems really rich of the Spanish govt. to claim they are following democratic processes to enforce a very undemocratic rule. They seem to be playing with semantics to enforce their will. Disclaimer: Total outsider view, I'm neither from Spain or Catalan nor have I ever visited. My opinions are based solely on news reports.

gpvos 9y ago
> there is a genuine, popular mandate for independence That remains to be seen. There are still less than 50% proponents of independence, according to what I read. The recent Spanish actions may have increased that number though.
- pm90 9y ago
  That is exactly the point I am trying to make. If the Spanish Central Government had handled this better, it probably could have convinced more Catalan against independence. But its actions have antagonized more and it doesn't look like it will end well.

Romo 9y ago

This is when politics should take over. In politics you can negotiate. Not the case for courts who must apply the rules. The big mistake here was trying to solve a political issue with the law.