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Without understanding the history of Spain and Cataluña it is easy to make false assumptions. I post a video in my original comment that talks about this. Take

Without understanding the history of Spain and Cataluña it is easy to make false assumptions. I post a video in my original comment that talks about this. Take a look to it. The referendum is a big mistake and going against it it is also another big mistake. Things are being done the wrong way on both sides.

marak830 9y ago
Look I understand you have a horse in this race, but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference. Just because you don't agree with it, as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. I could stand on a hilltop and say my hairy left testicle is god and should be worshipped, that doesn't make it true(bloody hell I hope not). My point of view that while there may be unpopular views(some for good reason), banning them doesn't fix the problem. Education and rational conversation is the key(as long as they arnt backed by voilence: see ww2 for an example of when talking doesn't work)
- jorgemf 9y ago
  First, it is against the law because the court has said so. Another topic of discussion is the law, but this is something some people want to talk about and there are way to do something like this. Some politics are open to discuss, most of them no (mostly because the use this as a distraction for other stuff). The referendum is a big mistake because of what you said, lack of communication and not willing to talk on both sides. I think it is very stupid, you have the central government full of corruption that uses Cataluña and the independence to get votes from the nationalist and as a distraction. You have the Catalan politics that want an independence but remaining in Europe, with (economic) support from the government of Spain and only want to change a little bit the law in their interest and don't provide economic resources to the rest of Spain. And at the same time the central government used the catalonians politics to get the votes they needed at the same time given them some privileges other parts of Spain doesn't have.
  - marak830 9y ago
    "First, it is against the law because the court has said so." .... What? If I said you couldn't talk about me slaughtering 1000 people would that be okay if I was an officer of the court. That's a stupid reason. "there are way to do something like this" - which are being blocked!(sorry to cut off a bit, but you can read up for full quote). "The referendum is a big mistake"...(he said more). You may be right, but who will know if they can't communicate. At the end of the day I don't agree nor disagree with your personal politics, but silencing an opponent only gives them more power in the long run, and in the short term makes everyone wonder what is being hidden. Edit: changed not to nor dn autocorrect Edit2: jorgemf -sory threads too long I can't reply to you. Look I don't 'disagree' with you per se, but I'll never agree with censorship. It doesn't matter who agreed to what, why should any government stop it's citizens from talking about an issue. The government is suppose to be a representive of the people, no mater what country you are in(if not, expect those same people to remove that government eventually). They may very well be wrong, but unless it is discussed in an open forum, it will only lead to resentment and eventually bloodshed. It has been a visible fact over human history, repressing the speech of the populace, has never worked well for the repressors.
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      It was the constitutional court, and there were a trial. The constitution says it is illegal, the same constitution the catalans signed years ago. They cannot do it unilaterally. Don't get me wrong, I want them to decide by themselves. But I want politics to tell them the truth and don't use the population for their own interests. And don't use the referendum to make people hate other people as they are doing now. First tell them the type of independence you want, it is not the same to be completely independent than a associate state. I think people are fighting for the independence but for different ones. And don't use the indpendence of cataluña to put the rest of spain against them (some politics said you should vote them to avoid breaking spain, and few months later making deals with the politics of Cataluña that support the independence and giving them more privileges).
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      > I'll never agree with censorship. Some politics want to open a public debate, but other don't let them (sadly) > why should any government stop it's citizens from talking about an issue They shouldn't, but what happens it that the use the independence to get votes. So basically a lot of Spain supports the censorship (sadly again) > but unless it is discussed in an open forum, it will only lead to resentment and eventually bloodshed. This is what I think is happening right now. The bloodshed is starting. I think we agree in a lot of things. I am not against a vote for independence, I am against everything is happening around and how is everything happening. This is not the way.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference" Because an unofficial referendum - which will not remotely reflect the actual will of the people - will still have dramatic political consequences. Nobody is 'banning' anyone from 'signing a petition'.
  - robhu 9y ago
    In what way would a referendum where every single person (of voting age) in the region could vote would 'not remotely reflect the actual will of the people'? This sounds like the sort of explanation a dictator would give for why a democratic vote would not tell the 'true story' of whether they really loved the dictator.
    - kgwgk 9y ago
      People who think the whole thing is a travesty (an illegal vote to discuss an illegal subject) are not going to vote, is easy to predict that the “yes” is going to win.
      - robhu 9y ago
        Baloney. People who think they should remain part of Spain will go out to vote No because otherwise Yes would win and that would provide a lot of momentum to leave. Again, this is the sort of argument used by anti-democratic regimes to discredit referendums and elections. "Oh of course Yes won, there is a large silent majority of No voters who feel so strongly about this subject they thought it would be better not to express their vote and prevent a Yes landslide" (said no serious person ever)
        kgwgk 9y ago
        The political parties opposed to the “process” (who by the way got a majority of the votes in the last local elections) are telling people not to participate. With the exception of Podemos, or whatever is the name of that coalition, which doesn’t have a clear position.
- euyyn 9y ago
  > how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference To be clear, nobody in Spain is against the law for stating their preference, in this or any matter. > as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. One could argue that wasting public funds on this does harm. But at the end of the day, if we want to change the law, we have democratic mechanisms for that.

marak830 9y ago

Look I understand you have a horse in this race, but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference. Just because you don't agree with it, as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. I could stand on a hilltop and say my hairy left testicle is god and should be worshipped, that doesn't make it true(bloody hell I hope not). My point of view that while there may be unpopular views(some for good reason), banning them doesn't fix the problem. Education and rational conversation is the key(as long as they arnt backed by voilence: see ww2 for an example of when talking doesn't work)

jorgemf 9y ago
First, it is against the law because the court has said so. Another topic of discussion is the law, but this is something some people want to talk about and there are way to do something like this. Some politics are open to discuss, most of them no (mostly because the use this as a distraction for other stuff). The referendum is a big mistake because of what you said, lack of communication and not willing to talk on both sides. I think it is very stupid, you have the central government full of corruption that uses Cataluña and the independence to get votes from the nationalist and as a distraction. You have the Catalan politics that want an independence but remaining in Europe, with (economic) support from the government of Spain and only want to change a little bit the law in their interest and don't provide economic resources to the rest of Spain. And at the same time the central government used the catalonians politics to get the votes they needed at the same time given them some privileges other parts of Spain doesn't have.
- marak830 9y ago
  "First, it is against the law because the court has said so." .... What? If I said you couldn't talk about me slaughtering 1000 people would that be okay if I was an officer of the court. That's a stupid reason. "there are way to do something like this" - which are being blocked!(sorry to cut off a bit, but you can read up for full quote). "The referendum is a big mistake"...(he said more). You may be right, but who will know if they can't communicate. At the end of the day I don't agree nor disagree with your personal politics, but silencing an opponent only gives them more power in the long run, and in the short term makes everyone wonder what is being hidden. Edit: changed not to nor dn autocorrect Edit2: jorgemf -sory threads too long I can't reply to you. Look I don't 'disagree' with you per se, but I'll never agree with censorship. It doesn't matter who agreed to what, why should any government stop it's citizens from talking about an issue. The government is suppose to be a representive of the people, no mater what country you are in(if not, expect those same people to remove that government eventually). They may very well be wrong, but unless it is discussed in an open forum, it will only lead to resentment and eventually bloodshed. It has been a visible fact over human history, repressing the speech of the populace, has never worked well for the repressors.
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    It was the constitutional court, and there were a trial. The constitution says it is illegal, the same constitution the catalans signed years ago. They cannot do it unilaterally. Don't get me wrong, I want them to decide by themselves. But I want politics to tell them the truth and don't use the population for their own interests. And don't use the referendum to make people hate other people as they are doing now. First tell them the type of independence you want, it is not the same to be completely independent than a associate state. I think people are fighting for the independence but for different ones. And don't use the indpendence of cataluña to put the rest of spain against them (some politics said you should vote them to avoid breaking spain, and few months later making deals with the politics of Cataluña that support the independence and giving them more privileges).
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    > I'll never agree with censorship. Some politics want to open a public debate, but other don't let them (sadly) > why should any government stop it's citizens from talking about an issue They shouldn't, but what happens it that the use the independence to get votes. So basically a lot of Spain supports the censorship (sadly again) > but unless it is discussed in an open forum, it will only lead to resentment and eventually bloodshed. This is what I think is happening right now. The bloodshed is starting. I think we agree in a lot of things. I am not against a vote for independence, I am against everything is happening around and how is everything happening. This is not the way.
alexasmyths 9y ago
"but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference" Because an unofficial referendum - which will not remotely reflect the actual will of the people - will still have dramatic political consequences. Nobody is 'banning' anyone from 'signing a petition'.
- robhu 9y ago
  In what way would a referendum where every single person (of voting age) in the region could vote would 'not remotely reflect the actual will of the people'? This sounds like the sort of explanation a dictator would give for why a democratic vote would not tell the 'true story' of whether they really loved the dictator.
  - kgwgk 9y ago
    People who think the whole thing is a travesty (an illegal vote to discuss an illegal subject) are not going to vote, is easy to predict that the “yes” is going to win.
    - robhu 9y ago
      Baloney. People who think they should remain part of Spain will go out to vote No because otherwise Yes would win and that would provide a lot of momentum to leave. Again, this is the sort of argument used by anti-democratic regimes to discredit referendums and elections. "Oh of course Yes won, there is a large silent majority of No voters who feel so strongly about this subject they thought it would be better not to express their vote and prevent a Yes landslide" (said no serious person ever)
      - kgwgk 9y ago
        The political parties opposed to the “process” (who by the way got a majority of the votes in the last local elections) are telling people not to participate. With the exception of Podemos, or whatever is the name of that coalition, which doesn’t have a clear position.
euyyn 9y ago
> how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference To be clear, nobody in Spain is against the law for stating their preference, in this or any matter. > as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. One could argue that wasting public funds on this does harm. But at the end of the day, if we want to change the law, we have democratic mechanisms for that.