5 ms·

150 years after the US civil war, the confederate flag is still flying around. I wouldn't be to hasty to call it eventual.

zakk 9y ago
If you are comparing the two, you have never visited Catalunya. The flag is everywhere, also they speak a different language.
- faragon 9y ago
  That's not correct. In mother tongue terms, 55% of population in Catalonia has the Spanish as his tongue (mother/habitual tongue), and 35% Catalan. The "economic power" is in hands of Catalan-"ethnic" people, though. Source (official): https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed&lang=en https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed&lang=en "The first casualty when war comes is truth".
  - icebraining 9y ago
    55% of population has Spanish as their mother tongue, but that's not necessarily what they speak now. Is there any poll showing what they actually speak daily?
    - faragon 9y ago
      55% mother/habitual tongue. In the above link (official data, from an official source) is explained in detail.
      - icebraining 9y ago
        mother/habitual This is not the same thing. My mother tongue is not my (current) habitual tongue. I don't see where the report shows the habitual tongue spoken.
        faragon 9y ago
        It is explained in the above (official) link.
        icebraining 9y ago
        Like I said, I've read the above official link. Multiple times, by now. Nowhere do I see a reference to the habitual language. Only to the Primera Llengua, which is Llengua o llengües que la persona ha parlat primer a casa seva. Es considera que aquesta llengua ha estat transmesa familiarment i adquirida en el procés de socialització de l'individu. This is not the habitual language. So, where is it?
        faragon 9y ago
        The above official link has many sections. Here is the link for the official language poll ("Enquesta d’usos lingüístics de la població 2008"), which includes mother-initial/identification/habitual language details (official data): http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2008.pdf http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfd... "Initial language" (page 45): Catalan: 31.6%, Spanish: 55%. "Identification language" (page 48): Catalan: 37.2%, Spanish: 46.5% "Habitual language" (page 51): Catalan: 35.6%, Spanish: 45.9% Edit: in my first comment in this thread I spoke from memory. Also, the data from the 2013 poll (official data): https://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2013.pdf https://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdf... "Initial language" (page 45): Catalan: 31%, Spanish: 55.1%. "Identification language" (page 46): Catalan: 36.4%, Spanish: 47.5%. "Habitual language" (page 49): Catalan: 36.3%, Spanish: 50.7%.
        icebraining 9y ago
        Thank you! EDIT: Seems like that's the old poll. There's a new one from 2013, in which both Catalan and Spanish grew as the habitual languages. It still doesn't reach 55%, though.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    If I'm recalling correctly from NPR this morning, nearly 100% of Catalan people under the age of 40 speak Catalan, while very few over the age of 40 do. This is the result of the language having been made illegal, then not illegal, then taught predominately by the school systems. Is it possible the 55% who speak Spanish primarily fall along those demographic lines? Is it also possible that some portion of that 55% speaks both Spanish and Catalan? Sincere question. I know very little of the situation.
    - faragon 9y ago
      I don't want to discuss politics, there is data in the same (official) web I pointed in the above comment.
    - Javimoreno 9y ago
      100% of us speak Spanish and actually it's very common to use both languages in a conversation when more than two persons are involved :) it's just natural for most of us. Actually I learned Catalan when I was 18 so I usually speak in Spanish and it is not a problem at all... And I'm very proud of being bilingual. In any case I would love to be able to express better myself in English :)
      - abrowne 9y ago
        You expressed yourself very well in English in your comment!
      - gerdesj 9y ago
        (anecdote) That precisely describes my personal experience of people in BCN and BDN, at least as a foreigner that keeps coming back as a tourist. I also have a friend who has been teaching English as a Foreign Language in BCN for at least a decade now, and he and his wife tell a similar story. "In any case I would love to be able to express better myself in English" - you already have a fluent grasp of English. You spelt it's with an apostrophe which is spot on and come across as a native writer - for a given value of "native" 8) Good skills mate.
  - Oletros 9y ago
    What has to do your answer with what the OP has said?
- scalesolved 9y ago
  It is much more complicated than this. Yes there are a lot of flags but there are also lots of places where there are no flags. In my building in Barcelona there are 10 flats. 2 flats have occupants who speak Catalan as the mother tongue, 4 flats with occupants who speak Spanish as their mother tongue and 2 flats with foreign languages. The language divide isn't always an indicator of their views, in the building there are Spanish speakers who want to vote yes, Catalan speakers that will vote no and a general consensus that everyone would just like the legal option to vote regardless of yes/no leanings.
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    " a general consensus that everyone would just like the legal option to vote regardless of yes/no leanings." And that it's really the only relevant point in this issue. All the other arguments are just distractions. When 82% (1) of the population want to vote, the two options are, voting or an undemocratic imposition by people that doesn't live in the area. In the context of a democratic Europe, sooner or later there is going to be a vote, ergo, whatever the result, better sooner than later. (1) - https://twitter.com/jpfbadcock/status/911702508749443074 https://twitter.com/jpfbadcock/status/911702508749443074
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
That's true, but you don't see signs demanding "democracy" or secession (except perhaps in Texas, and not really much there either). That is, while there are confederate flags, there isn't a active, ongoing independence movement in the US south.
- michigan_j_frog 9y ago
  But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S..
  - bonzini 9y ago
    How is that different from what is happening in Spain?
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    "But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S.." I'm not sure what you mean by that but I would like to know. Suppose that 100% of Texas wanted secession (it's just an example), what the federal government would do? Keep a permanent occupation force like in Iraq or something like that? It would be difficult keep talking about democracy with a straight face.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Sure it would, if it got popular enough. All you got to do is change the constitution.
  - iamnothere 9y ago
    The US federal government would simply do what it always does in these situations: ignore the referendum, allow it to proceed, and intervene when "votes" turn into "actions". (Even then, as with cannabis legalization, sometimes the feds ignore "illegal" state actions as long as they aren't too threatening to federal authority.)
pm90 9y ago
While that's true, its only a small, mostly racist white minority that is really serious about secession. And don't forget that the Catalan people have their own cultural identity for hundreds of years. i.e. they have a legitimate claim of being different from other Spaniards and thus wishing for their independence.
- tomjakubowski 9y ago
  > While that's true, its only a small, mostly racist white minority that is really serious about secession. Are any of them still serious about it now that Obama is out of office?
  - uncletaco 9y ago
    I'm hesitant to call them racist on a whole (though there most likeley are racists among their ranks) but the Republic of Texas group and their spiritual successor the Texas Nationalist Movement have been around for close to three decades now. They're the fringiest of the fringe though.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- petecox 9y ago
  > the Catalan people have their own cultural identity Spain is divided into 17 communities. Each has their own cultural identity. What I like about travelling around Spain (and I must do the Canaries and Balearics some day) is the microcosm of different regional flavours, e.g. Asturias and Galicia have bagpipes, the Basque country is a foodies delight, Andalucia has flamenco & Moorish palaces, the Canaries have a whistled language etc. Now I get the Catalans feel "different" but when I see the graffiti around the place saying "X is NOT Spain", I wonder which Spanish identity they're referring to.
  - anthk 9y ago
    >Now I get the Catalans feel "different" but when I see the graffiti around the place saying "X is NOT Spain", I wonder which Spanish identity they're referring to. Fake Spain, such Andalusian or Castillian identified both as proper Spanish. "Hablame en castellano, polaco".
alwillis 9y ago
The Confederate flag was essentially banished until the 1960's in response to the Civil Rights movement.
- brightball 9y ago
  For what it's worth, that was also the 100 year anniversary of the war. The two happened to coincide. Even in South Carolina where there was so much controversy around having it at the state house...the reason it went up in the first place was supposed to be temporary (4 years) for that purpose alone. That it never came down when it was supposed to the real issue.

zakk 9y ago

If you are comparing the two, you have never visited Catalunya. The flag is everywhere, also they speak a different language.

faragon 9y ago
That's not correct. In mother tongue terms, 55% of population in Catalonia has the Spanish as his tongue (mother/habitual tongue), and 35% Catalan. The "economic power" is in hands of Catalan-"ethnic" people, though. Source (official): https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed&lang=en https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed&lang=en "The first casualty when war comes is truth".
- icebraining 9y ago
  55% of population has Spanish as their mother tongue, but that's not necessarily what they speak now. Is there any poll showing what they actually speak daily?
  - faragon 9y ago
    55% mother/habitual tongue. In the above link (official data, from an official source) is explained in detail.
    - icebraining 9y ago
      mother/habitual This is not the same thing. My mother tongue is not my (current) habitual tongue. I don't see where the report shows the habitual tongue spoken.
      - faragon 9y ago
        It is explained in the above (official) link.
        icebraining 9y ago
        Like I said, I've read the above official link. Multiple times, by now. Nowhere do I see a reference to the habitual language. Only to the Primera Llengua, which is Llengua o llengües que la persona ha parlat primer a casa seva. Es considera que aquesta llengua ha estat transmesa familiarment i adquirida en el procés de socialització de l'individu. This is not the habitual language. So, where is it?
        faragon 9y ago
        The above official link has many sections. Here is the link for the official language poll ("Enquesta d’usos lingüístics de la població 2008"), which includes mother-initial/identification/habitual language details (official data): http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2008.pdf http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfd... "Initial language" (page 45): Catalan: 31.6%, Spanish: 55%. "Identification language" (page 48): Catalan: 37.2%, Spanish: 46.5% "Habitual language" (page 51): Catalan: 35.6%, Spanish: 45.9% Edit: in my first comment in this thread I spoke from memory. Also, the data from the 2013 poll (official data): https://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2013.pdf https://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdf... "Initial language" (page 45): Catalan: 31%, Spanish: 55.1%. "Identification language" (page 46): Catalan: 36.4%, Spanish: 47.5%. "Habitual language" (page 49): Catalan: 36.3%, Spanish: 50.7%.
        icebraining 9y ago
        Thank you! EDIT: Seems like that's the old poll. There's a new one from 2013, in which both Catalan and Spanish grew as the habitual languages. It still doesn't reach 55%, though.
- bmelton 9y ago
  If I'm recalling correctly from NPR this morning, nearly 100% of Catalan people under the age of 40 speak Catalan, while very few over the age of 40 do. This is the result of the language having been made illegal, then not illegal, then taught predominately by the school systems. Is it possible the 55% who speak Spanish primarily fall along those demographic lines? Is it also possible that some portion of that 55% speaks both Spanish and Catalan? Sincere question. I know very little of the situation.
  - faragon 9y ago
    I don't want to discuss politics, there is data in the same (official) web I pointed in the above comment.
  - Javimoreno 9y ago
    100% of us speak Spanish and actually it's very common to use both languages in a conversation when more than two persons are involved :) it's just natural for most of us. Actually I learned Catalan when I was 18 so I usually speak in Spanish and it is not a problem at all... And I'm very proud of being bilingual. In any case I would love to be able to express better myself in English :)
    - abrowne 9y ago
      You expressed yourself very well in English in your comment!
    - gerdesj 9y ago
      (anecdote) That precisely describes my personal experience of people in BCN and BDN, at least as a foreigner that keeps coming back as a tourist. I also have a friend who has been teaching English as a Foreign Language in BCN for at least a decade now, and he and his wife tell a similar story. "In any case I would love to be able to express better myself in English" - you already have a fluent grasp of English. You spelt it's with an apostrophe which is spot on and come across as a native writer - for a given value of "native" 8) Good skills mate.
- Oletros 9y ago
  What has to do your answer with what the OP has said?
scalesolved 9y ago
It is much more complicated than this. Yes there are a lot of flags but there are also lots of places where there are no flags. In my building in Barcelona there are 10 flats. 2 flats have occupants who speak Catalan as the mother tongue, 4 flats with occupants who speak Spanish as their mother tongue and 2 flats with foreign languages. The language divide isn't always an indicator of their views, in the building there are Spanish speakers who want to vote yes, Catalan speakers that will vote no and a general consensus that everyone would just like the legal option to vote regardless of yes/no leanings.
- RobertoG 9y ago
  " a general consensus that everyone would just like the legal option to vote regardless of yes/no leanings." And that it's really the only relevant point in this issue. All the other arguments are just distractions. When 82% (1) of the population want to vote, the two options are, voting or an undemocratic imposition by people that doesn't live in the area. In the context of a democratic Europe, sooner or later there is going to be a vote, ergo, whatever the result, better sooner than later. (1) - https://twitter.com/jpfbadcock/status/911702508749443074 https://twitter.com/jpfbadcock/status/911702508749443074

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

That's true, but you don't see signs demanding "democracy" or secession (except perhaps in Texas, and not really much there either). That is, while there are confederate flags, there isn't a active, ongoing independence movement in the US south.

michigan_j_frog 9y ago
But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S..
- bonzini 9y ago
  How is that different from what is happening in Spain?
- RobertoG 9y ago
  "But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S.." I'm not sure what you mean by that but I would like to know. Suppose that 100% of Texas wanted secession (it's just an example), what the federal government would do? Keep a permanent occupation force like in Iraq or something like that? It would be difficult keep talking about democracy with a straight face.
- stale2002 9y ago
  Sure it would, if it got popular enough. All you got to do is change the constitution.
- iamnothere 9y ago
  The US federal government would simply do what it always does in these situations: ignore the referendum, allow it to proceed, and intervene when "votes" turn into "actions". (Even then, as with cannabis legalization, sometimes the feds ignore "illegal" state actions as long as they aren't too threatening to federal authority.)

pm90 9y ago

While that's true, its only a small, mostly racist white minority that is really serious about secession. And don't forget that the Catalan people have their own cultural identity for hundreds of years. i.e. they have a legitimate claim of being different from other Spaniards and thus wishing for their independence.

tomjakubowski 9y ago
> While that's true, its only a small, mostly racist white minority that is really serious about secession. Are any of them still serious about it now that Obama is out of office?
- uncletaco 9y ago
  I'm hesitant to call them racist on a whole (though there most likeley are racists among their ranks) but the Republic of Texas group and their spiritual successor the Texas Nationalist Movement have been around for close to three decades now. They're the fringiest of the fringe though.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
petecox 9y ago
> the Catalan people have their own cultural identity Spain is divided into 17 communities. Each has their own cultural identity. What I like about travelling around Spain (and I must do the Canaries and Balearics some day) is the microcosm of different regional flavours, e.g. Asturias and Galicia have bagpipes, the Basque country is a foodies delight, Andalucia has flamenco & Moorish palaces, the Canaries have a whistled language etc. Now I get the Catalans feel "different" but when I see the graffiti around the place saying "X is NOT Spain", I wonder which Spanish identity they're referring to.
- anthk 9y ago
  >Now I get the Catalans feel "different" but when I see the graffiti around the place saying "X is NOT Spain", I wonder which Spanish identity they're referring to. Fake Spain, such Andalusian or Castillian identified both as proper Spanish. "Hablame en castellano, polaco".

alwillis 9y ago

The Confederate flag was essentially banished until the 1960's in response to the Civil Rights movement.

brightball 9y ago
For what it's worth, that was also the 100 year anniversary of the war. The two happened to coincide. Even in South Carolina where there was so much controversy around having it at the state house...the reason it went up in the first place was supposed to be temporary (4 years) for that purpose alone. That it never came down when it was supposed to the real issue.