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I just left Barcelona a couple hours ago, the capital of Catalonia. Everywhere you look, Catalan flags, signs demanding 'democracia', demanding freedom. I'm to

• lloyd-christmas 9y ago
  150 years after the US civil war, the confederate flag is still flying around. I wouldn't be to hasty to call it eventual.
  • zakk 9y ago
    If you are comparing the two, you have never visited Catalunya. The flag is everywhere, also they speak a different language.
    • faragon 9y ago
      That's not correct. In mother tongue terms, 55% of population in Catalonia has the Spanish as his tongue (mother/habitual tongue), and 35% Catalan. The "economic power" is in hands of Catalan-"ethnic" people, though. Source (official): https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed&lang=en https://www.idescat.cat/pub/?id=ed&lang=en "The first casualty when war comes is truth".
      • icebraining 9y ago
        55% of population has Spanish as their mother tongue, but that's not necessarily what they speak now. Is there any poll showing what they actually speak daily?
        • faragon 9y ago
          55% mother/habitual tongue. In the above link (official data, from an official source) is explained in detail.
          • icebraining 9y ago
            mother/habitual This is not the same thing. My mother tongue is not my (current) habitual tongue. I don't see where the report shows the habitual tongue spoken.
            • faragon 9y ago
              It is explained in the above (official) link.
              • icebraining 9y ago
                Like I said, I've read the above official link. Multiple times, by now. Nowhere do I see a reference to the habitual language. Only to the Primera Llengua, which is Llengua o llengües que la persona ha parlat primer a casa seva. Es considera que aquesta llengua ha estat transmesa familiarment i adquirida en el procés de socialització de l'individu. This is not the habitual language. So, where is it?
                • faragon 9y ago
                  The above official link has many sections. Here is the link for the official language poll ("Enquesta d’usos lingüístics de la població 2008"), which includes mother-initial/identification/habitual language details (official data): http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2008.pdf http://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfd... "Initial language" (page 45): Catalan: 31.6%, Spanish: 55%. "Identification language" (page 48): Catalan: 37.2%, Spanish: 46.5% "Habitual language" (page 51): Catalan: 35.6%, Spanish: 45.9% Edit: in my first comment in this thread I spoke from memory. Also, the data from the 2013 poll (official data): https://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdfdocs/eulp2013.pdf https://www.idescat.cat/cat/idescat/publicacions/cataleg/pdf... "Initial language" (page 45): Catalan: 31%, Spanish: 55.1%. "Identification language" (page 46): Catalan: 36.4%, Spanish: 47.5%. "Habitual language" (page 49): Catalan: 36.3%, Spanish: 50.7%.
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      • bmelton 9y ago
        If I'm recalling correctly from NPR this morning, nearly 100% of Catalan people under the age of 40 speak Catalan, while very few over the age of 40 do. This is the result of the language having been made illegal, then not illegal, then taught predominately by the school systems. Is it possible the 55% who speak Spanish primarily fall along those demographic lines? Is it also possible that some portion of that 55% speaks both Spanish and Catalan? Sincere question. I know very little of the situation.
        • faragon 9y ago
          I don't want to discuss politics, there is data in the same (official) web I pointed in the above comment.
        • Javimoreno 9y ago
          100% of us speak Spanish and actually it's very common to use both languages in a conversation when more than two persons are involved :) it's just natural for most of us. Actually I learned Catalan when I was 18 so I usually speak in Spanish and it is not a problem at all... And I'm very proud of being bilingual. In any case I would love to be able to express better myself in English :)
          • abrowne 9y ago
            You expressed yourself very well in English in your comment!
          • gerdesj 9y ago
            (anecdote) That precisely describes my personal experience of people in BCN and BDN, at least as a foreigner that keeps coming back as a tourist. I also have a friend who has been teaching English as a Foreign Language in BCN for at least a decade now, and he and his wife tell a similar story. "In any case I would love to be able to express better myself in English" - you already have a fluent grasp of English. You spelt it's with an apostrophe which is spot on and come across as a native writer - for a given value of "native" 8) Good skills mate.
      • Oletros 9y ago
        What has to do your answer with what the OP has said?
    • scalesolved 9y ago
      It is much more complicated than this. Yes there are a lot of flags but there are also lots of places where there are no flags. In my building in Barcelona there are 10 flats. 2 flats have occupants who speak Catalan as the mother tongue, 4 flats with occupants who speak Spanish as their mother tongue and 2 flats with foreign languages. The language divide isn't always an indicator of their views, in the building there are Spanish speakers who want to vote yes, Catalan speakers that will vote no and a general consensus that everyone would just like the legal option to vote regardless of yes/no leanings.
      • RobertoG 9y ago
        " a general consensus that everyone would just like the legal option to vote regardless of yes/no leanings." And that it's really the only relevant point in this issue. All the other arguments are just distractions. When 82% (1) of the population want to vote, the two options are, voting or an undemocratic imposition by people that doesn't live in the area. In the context of a democratic Europe, sooner or later there is going to be a vote, ergo, whatever the result, better sooner than later. (1) - https://twitter.com/jpfbadcock/status/911702508749443074 https://twitter.com/jpfbadcock/status/911702508749443074
  • AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    That's true, but you don't see signs demanding "democracy" or secession (except perhaps in Texas, and not really much there either). That is, while there are confederate flags, there isn't a active, ongoing independence movement in the US south.
    • michigan_j_frog 9y ago
      But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S..
      • bonzini 9y ago
        How is that different from what is happening in Spain?
      • RobertoG 9y ago
        "But there’s no chance a binding secession referendum would be allowed in the U.S.." I'm not sure what you mean by that but I would like to know. Suppose that 100% of Texas wanted secession (it's just an example), what the federal government would do? Keep a permanent occupation force like in Iraq or something like that? It would be difficult keep talking about democracy with a straight face.
      • stale2002 9y ago
        Sure it would, if it got popular enough. All you got to do is change the constitution.
      • iamnothere 9y ago
        The US federal government would simply do what it always does in these situations: ignore the referendum, allow it to proceed, and intervene when "votes" turn into "actions". (Even then, as with cannabis legalization, sometimes the feds ignore "illegal" state actions as long as they aren't too threatening to federal authority.)
  • pm90 9y ago
    While that's true, its only a small, mostly racist white minority that is really serious about secession. And don't forget that the Catalan people have their own cultural identity for hundreds of years. i.e. they have a legitimate claim of being different from other Spaniards and thus wishing for their independence.
    • tomjakubowski 9y ago
      > While that's true, its only a small, mostly racist white minority that is really serious about secession. Are any of them still serious about it now that Obama is out of office?
      • uncletaco 9y ago
        I'm hesitant to call them racist on a whole (though there most likeley are racists among their ranks) but the Republic of Texas group and their spiritual successor the Texas Nationalist Movement have been around for close to three decades now. They're the fringiest of the fringe though.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    • petecox 9y ago
      > the Catalan people have their own cultural identity Spain is divided into 17 communities. Each has their own cultural identity. What I like about travelling around Spain (and I must do the Canaries and Balearics some day) is the microcosm of different regional flavours, e.g. Asturias and Galicia have bagpipes, the Basque country is a foodies delight, Andalucia has flamenco & Moorish palaces, the Canaries have a whistled language etc. Now I get the Catalans feel "different" but when I see the graffiti around the place saying "X is NOT Spain", I wonder which Spanish identity they're referring to.
      • anthk 9y ago
        >Now I get the Catalans feel "different" but when I see the graffiti around the place saying "X is NOT Spain", I wonder which Spanish identity they're referring to. Fake Spain, such Andalusian or Castillian identified both as proper Spanish. "Hablame en castellano, polaco".
  • alwillis 9y ago
    The Confederate flag was essentially banished until the 1960's in response to the Civil Rights movement.
    • brightball 9y ago
      For what it's worth, that was also the 100 year anniversary of the war. The two happened to coincide. Even in South Carolina where there was so much controversy around having it at the state house...the reason it went up in the first place was supposed to be temporary (4 years) for that purpose alone. That it never came down when it was supposed to the real issue.
• pipio21 9y ago
  Well, it is normal since independentists have controlled Catalunya since 40 years ago. It used to be that 20% of the population was independentist through, now is over 50%. For example, they choosed school principals among independentist so now over 85% of them are Catalan language teachers that tend to be independentist. This way kids could be directed to be independentist too. The same happened with the local media, TV3, newspapers like La Vanguardia. If you were not independent public funds were not given to you. Those private media without the public funding could not live on their own. Since 20 years ago they control education too, and kids are forced to speak Catalan as the main language, studing a very biased History full of lies like that Catalunuya was a reign in the past. They also put big sanctions on shops labeling things on Spanish until nobody dare. They brought nearly a million muslim people to Catalunya to work so they do not speak Spanish, like people from Spain or South America does. This makes it the higher terrorist risk area in all Spain, including Ceuta and Melilla. The problem was not independentist forces doing this, but the central gobertment that let this happen. Now with half the population(controlling Catalunya) against the other (supported by the Govertment) there is a significant risk of civil war there.
  • elecbit 9y ago
    A Catalan here. Quite a bad description, I think. We should remember that Catalonia had its own language forbidden to even speak in the street for 40 years during Franco's dictatorship. Language and culture was kept alive thanks of people keeping it in secrecy. When "democracy" returned, some of the competences they had before the war were returned to the government. After 6 years of demonstrations of 2-3 million (out of 7million) asking to hold a referendum and receiving NO to any request, it was announced and proposed one year ago in order to agree it with Spanish government, but they would not even discuss it. In the end the unilateral way is the only way to hold this referendum. Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Isn't it democracy? People who doesn't want independence can say NO. Laws should serve people's desires, not forbid participation and opinion.
    • euyyn 9y ago
      > Why shouldn't it be allowed to ask people's preferences? Doesn't that happen all the time in polls and in local, regional, and general elections?
• pepon 9y ago
  There are also many many people and windows without flags ;) Once they become an independent country, it will be one where ~50% of the people doesn't want to belong to it. Let's see what kind of "democracia" will they apply there.
  • severino 9y ago
    Well, that's happening already: half the population does not want to belong to the state. The "democracia" here is you don't vote and never will. What can be worse than that?
    • pepon 9y ago
      No, that is not what is happening. Spain is a state where the majority of the people wants to belong to the state. Catalonia would be a state where half of the people wouldn't want to belong to it. I wonder if the future Catalan government will allow referendums so that such people will be able to split from Catalonia. Besides, not voting is also democracy. Most of the Spanish people don't want to allow these kind of referendums in Spain. Therefore, Spain is doing what the majority wants (== democracy).
      • elecbit 9y ago
        I agree that "not voting is also democracy". However I cannot agree about not allowing to vote, which is the case. It's a political issue, which should be solved like it was in Scotland. In the name of what, a group can decide over another on what is it allowed to do? Because of the frontiers made after conquering when using force?
        • pepon 9y ago
          "In the name of what, a group can decide over another on what is it allowed to do?" Of course that a group can decide over another group which is a subset of the former. Otherwise, any city of any country, or any group of individuals, could decide to vote and set their own rules for whatever they want.
• gpvos 9y ago
  Actually, only slightly less than 50% wants independence. They are very vocal though. Also, since education in Catalonia is entirely in Catalonian (also they have their own history books), and use of Spanish in public is heavily discouraged, children will grow up in a mostly Catalonian environment, which makes it likely that that percentage will grow over time.
  • RBerenguel 9y ago
    > and use of Spanish in public is heavily discouraged Would help to know (for non Catalans, specially) what you hint at. My parents talk in Spanish everywhere and to anyone they want to with no problems. Have done so for all her life for my mother and more than 40 years for my father. I assume you mean that public offices and positions require knowing and using Catalan?
    • gpvos 9y ago
      I'm not from there, my information comes mostly from Dutch and English media. But I've read that all public schools are all-Catalan except for the Spanish language lessons, and shops with Spanish-only signs are fined.
      • RBerenguel 9y ago
        For shops, that’s the language equality law. Not sure about the justification, but it’s not that hard to have dual signs (and written Catalan is easy to grasp for Spanish speakers). This law was introduced some 10 years ago. For classes, IIRC it’s not mandatory (or wasn’t 15 years ago), just common. My chemistry teacher spoke only Spanish, and it was fine.
  • setzer22 9y ago
    The best "measure" we have right now for the percentage of independentists (and the one I assume you're implicitly citing) were the last Catalan elections the 27th of september of 2015. There are two problems with that measure: - That was two years ago - Even then, that was a parlamentary election, not a referendum. This <50% metric has been widely cited by the media, but it is flawed IMO. I think it is reasonable to demand a proper referendum, whether you want independence or not.