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Just a bit of feedback. This weekend there is a referendum in Cataluña, a province of Spain, about their independentism. This is not supported by the central go

Just a bit of feedback. This weekend there is a referendum in Cataluña, a province of Spain, about their independentism. This is not supported by the central government and it is consider illegal, and that is the reason the app was removed from the PlayStore, the court ordered it. Nothing so see here unless you want to talk about politics. EDIT: as you want to talk about politics, them you should have a bit of background. I think this is a good video (spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4

marak830 9y ago
Actually I'd argue that it's more important because the government doesn't support it. Unless there was a rule stating it was illegal to take a census before this existed, shouldn't that be a huge red flag for taking this down?
- jorgemf 9y ago
  Without understanding the history of Spain and Cataluña it is easy to make false assumptions. I post a video in my original comment that talks about this. Take a look to it. The referendum is a big mistake and going against it it is also another big mistake. Things are being done the wrong way on both sides.
  - marak830 9y ago
    Look I understand you have a horse in this race, but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference. Just because you don't agree with it, as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. I could stand on a hilltop and say my hairy left testicle is god and should be worshipped, that doesn't make it true(bloody hell I hope not). My point of view that while there may be unpopular views(some for good reason), banning them doesn't fix the problem. Education and rational conversation is the key(as long as they arnt backed by voilence: see ww2 for an example of when talking doesn't work)
    - jorgemf 9y ago
      First, it is against the law because the court has said so. Another topic of discussion is the law, but this is something some people want to talk about and there are way to do something like this. Some politics are open to discuss, most of them no (mostly because the use this as a distraction for other stuff). The referendum is a big mistake because of what you said, lack of communication and not willing to talk on both sides. I think it is very stupid, you have the central government full of corruption that uses Cataluña and the independence to get votes from the nationalist and as a distraction. You have the Catalan politics that want an independence but remaining in Europe, with (economic) support from the government of Spain and only want to change a little bit the law in their interest and don't provide economic resources to the rest of Spain. And at the same time the central government used the catalonians politics to get the votes they needed at the same time given them some privileges other parts of Spain doesn't have.
      - marak830 9y ago
        "First, it is against the law because the court has said so." .... What? If I said you couldn't talk about me slaughtering 1000 people would that be okay if I was an officer of the court. That's a stupid reason. "there are way to do something like this" - which are being blocked!(sorry to cut off a bit, but you can read up for full quote). "The referendum is a big mistake"...(he said more). You may be right, but who will know if they can't communicate. At the end of the day I don't agree nor disagree with your personal politics, but silencing an opponent only gives them more power in the long run, and in the short term makes everyone wonder what is being hidden. Edit: changed not to nor dn autocorrect Edit2: jorgemf -sory threads too long I can't reply to you. Look I don't 'disagree' with you per se, but I'll never agree with censorship. It doesn't matter who agreed to what, why should any government stop it's citizens from talking about an issue. The government is suppose to be a representive of the people, no mater what country you are in(if not, expect those same people to remove that government eventually). They may very well be wrong, but unless it is discussed in an open forum, it will only lead to resentment and eventually bloodshed. It has been a visible fact over human history, repressing the speech of the populace, has never worked well for the repressors.
- alexasmyths 9y ago
  "Actually I'd argue that it's more important because the government doesn't support it." A considerable number of Catalans don't support it either. When you have an 'unofficial referendum' - likely to be boycotted or ignored by those not support of it - you can possibly arrive at a situation wherein the 'majority of votes cast' opted for independence, but wherein this is not remotely an accurate reflection of the actual populations wishes. In politics, there's no such thing as 'a referendum that has no legal binding' - the results of the referendum, however inaccurate, will be used by political activists the world over as 'claims of legitimacy'. Either there is a clear, unambiguous, clearly worded, properly managed referendum (with some kind of legal status i.e. 'not binidng' or 'binding' or whatever) - or there is nothing. De-facto partisan-managed referendums are not good.
  - marak830 9y ago
    "A considerable number of Catalans don't support it either." So what? Just ignore it then. As for the majority of votes, just tally them vs total population. Simple. But now that it's blocked, they have put it in the spotlight. "Either there is a clear, unambiguous, clearly worded, properly managed referendum (with some kind of legal status i.e. 'not binidng' or 'binding' or whatever) - or there is nothing." Oh bullshit, have you ever seen any political party say anything 100% clearly, that's just raising the bar. If it's a small minority voting, then why should they care? If it's something that may be popular... Well we're seeing where this is going now, arnt we.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      "So what? Just ignore it then." + If a considerable number of people ignore a referendum it loses it's legitimacy. "As for the majority of votes, just tally them vs total population. Simple." No. Absolutely not. This is not how either elections or referendums are done. "Oh bullshit, have you ever seen any political party say anything 100% clearly, that's just raising the bar." I'm afraid you are dead wrong. The 'wording' of a referendum is a very important and contentious thing - otherwise it loses legitimacy and legal standing. As for 'bullshit' - there is actually a law in Canada, called the 'Clarity Act' that legally requires referendum questions to be clear. This is because separatists want to soften the wording of the question 'i.e. we seek to renegotiate our status' - thereby getting the 10% or so on board who really don't want to separate, but want more power. Those against the referendum want a hard question like: "Do you want to separate from XYZ and loses your passport" etc.. "If it's a small minority voting, then why should they care?" Because the political entities who directed the 'bad referendum' will use it as political capital to flame the flames. Either it's done right - or not at all. Ambiguous referendums are a disaster for everyone.
enriquto 9y ago
Would you say the same thing if Chinese or Venezuelan courts banned google apps that give information "considered illegal" there? This is ridiculous. The app just gives a list of the schools to vote according to your address. Even if the referendum is "illegal" under spanish law, it is completely bananas to ban such an app.
- ghostly_s 9y ago
  I think in many first-world nations, distributing info intended to enable others to commit a crime is, itself, a crime. (Which is not to suggest I agree with the state's legal ruling here.) Edit: but of course the referendum itself being illegal does not necessarily imply that voting in it, is illegal. And it seems more reasonable that the state could determine the results of the referendum to be non-binding per their constitution, rather than being justified in preventing it from taking place.
  - enriquto 9y ago
    OK, but voting in this referendum, even under current spanish law, is not actually commiting any crime.
    - ghostly_s 9y ago
      You're probably right, but I think Google could make an argument that any app which is even adjacent to "illegal activity" may be a violation of their ToS, regardless of the app's actual legal status. And there's much less argument to be made here for Google's obligation to tolerate this use-case because their store does not operate as a monopoly on the platform like Apple's does.
      - KekDemaga 9y ago
        Multiple backpage (a popular escort site) apps are currently in the store so that can't be the reason.
        9y ago
logicallee 9y ago
I think I will memorize and remember your comment to show that America is special and totally unique in the world. I presume you're a European, and you call it nothing special that the State forced the removal of a private form of expression. In America every single adult of average or slightly below average intelligence knows they have a first-amendment right to say whatever they want. The Supreme Court, which is totally separate from the executive and legislative branches, and has members appointed for life (who often don't end up beholden to the people who appointed them) interpret the Constitution with total independence. While you call Spain's action "nothing to see", America is a shining beacon of free speech whose transcendent importance has not even made it to the average educated person (you) in Europe, let alone the whole of its population. Anyone who objects to American exceptionalism would do well to reflect on the parent comment's nonchalance. >Just a bit of feedback. This weekend there is a referendum in Cataluña, a province of Spain, about their independentism. This is not supported by the central government and it is consider illegal, and that is the reason the app was removed from the PlayStore, the court ordered it. >Nothing so see here unless you want to talk about politics. >EDIT: as you want to talk about politics, them you should have a bit of background. I think this is a good video (spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4
- jorgemf 9y ago
  First, are you form the USA? Because America has also Venezuela, Cuba, and more countries. Second, are you telling me we are worse than you because of this after what your president have done? "Nothing to see here unless you want to talk about politics". The law is the law, Catalans supported the law and that law is what forbids an unilateral movement to break the country. Bear in mind the Catalans said this vote is valuable to consider themselves independents. There is a big discussion about this topic in Spain, with a lot of free speach. You should consider understand better the country you are talking about before make those claims to fulfill your "American ego".
  - logicallee 9y ago
    Yes, the entirety of my comment refers to the United States. So, where you say "The law is the law", in the United States there is also a higher law which is the constitution, and which protects free speech. It's "stronger than" the law. Everybody in America knows this. So my point, which, respectfully, you have just confirmed, is that this idea has not made it back to Europe. You confirm this in your comment stating "the law is the law" and that people support it, and you state that this should be enough. (In the United States this is not enough, and what you describe cannot occur due to the philosophy and legal structure: if Congress passed a law making political discussion of something like the independence of a state illegal, then even if people supported that law, the supreme court would rule the law itself unconstitutional and it would be struck down. Because in the United States freedom of speech is higher than the law, and protected by the supreme court in the manner I described; it's a separate branch of government.)
CaptSpify 9y ago
rough summary for those who don't speak spanish?
- jorgemf 9y ago
  First that I am getting a lot of downvotes because I don't support any side and I will get more in this comment. It is hard to sum up everything. I am going to give you my biased opinion. We were a dictatorship 40 years ago, he died and put a king to govern Spain. The king created the democracy. We always had very different cultures (vasque country, cataluña). They got privileges during the democracy. Cataluña is an important province of Spain with strong economics (some of them because of the past privileges). They just decide as they have different language/culture they don't want to be part of spain and they want do things like they want (like any one that wants to be independent). The government (formed by people who supported or it is linked somehow to the dictatorship in the past) used the problem of Cataluña to get votes, but at the same time they make deals with the Catalans. Catalans always blame central government. The corruption is quite relevant in the country (all the country), the first Catalan politics who wanted the independence are under trials because of corruption, the same for the central government. Now, I think, some catalan politics want the independence to avoid the spanish law. The central government use the catalans to avoid talking about the corruption issues. Both sides are putting people against people. Only few people really want to have an open debate, but noone lets them. Fight is starting. We didn't even have an open debate to discuss the type of independence, like competletely independent or an associate state, but Catalans want a binding vote right now.
  - wbillingsley 9y ago
    IndyRef didn't hammer out all the details first either. Neither did Brexit. Before the detail-hammering starts, it needs the decision that people actually want it in the first place (the referendum) otherwise it's all moot. A two-referendum model isn't necessarily a bad idea -- if you hold the first referendum on negotiating independence, and the second on executing it. Though I suspect you'd need to make that clear before the first referendum, otherwise it'd seem like "Hmm, that wasn't the answer we wanted; perhaps if we ask you the question again..." It having gone this far, though I could be wrong, I can't currently see denying a referendum working for anybody. Spain seems to be pursuing a kind of One Spain policy, and I doubt the Catalan populace will go along with that -- seems more likely to get their hackles up to say there's no way they could have independence even if they all wanted it.
ethbro 9y ago
As a side note, if we are talking about politics then this comes on the heels of the Kurdish vote to pursue independence from Iraq with 92% of voters in favor (I read 72% turn out). http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41440747 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41440747 Both the US and Britain condemned the vote, which is morally disgusting after the Kurds and Peshmerga supported both of them in at least 2 wars (Iraq War of 2003+ & fight against IS). It's okay when developed countries invade developing countries to "spread democracy", but when ethnic subgroups attempt to seek independence non-violently it's not?
- jorgemf 9y ago
  > but when ethnic subgroups attempt to seek independence non-violently it's not? I didn't say anything, just it is against the law and the constitution (the same Catalans signed). The big issue is that there is no an open debate for this. There is only fight without arguments. It is not clear what type of independence they are fighting for but they want to make a binding vote. And the central government doesn't want even to talk about a possible secession. They use it to gain votes in the rest of Spain (but at the same time they made negotiations with independants to change the law). This is more about corruption. The same way "spread the democracy" is more about getting local resources.
- IIAOPSW 9y ago
  I think you should read the US and UK words on this referendum as "saying no but nodding yes". For geopolitical reasons (see: Bosphorous straits) the US/Western Bloc can't afford to piss off Turkey. But in a vacuum I'm sure the US and Brits are perfectly fine to see a Kurdish state. The result is that the US and UK will pay lip service to being anti-secession while doing nothing to stop it on the ground.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    The US (and probably UK) don't want a Kurdish state formed out of the Kurdish areas of A Iraq because because, Syria, Iran, and Iraq have been united in opposing Kurdish separatism, and even if Iraq gets okay with it, a Kurdish state encourages separatists in Iran, Syria, and Turkey, and drives Syria and, more importantly, Turkey into deeper alignment with Iran. Ideologically, the US and UK might support the Kurds goals, but geopolitically they do not. And geopolitical, especially with the US, trumps ideals in the Middle East.
askvictor 9y ago
This isn't just about politics. True general purpose computing (i.e. free from the walled gardens of Google and Apple) wouldn't be able to block something like this; irrespective of what you think of the politics. We've taken the path where governments can decide what programs we can and can't run on our devices.
- euyyn 9y ago
  I guess if it were a PC program, the judge would need to order to the sites that host it to stop distributing it in Spain?
  - askvictor 9y ago
    Which would mean any overseas sites wouldn't care as they'd be outside their jurisdiction, or Spain would need to implement a Great Firewall like China.
    - euyyn 9y ago
      Or the ISPs would be told to block the site. Not really sure how it's usually done for websites in general.

marak830 9y ago

Actually I'd argue that it's more important because the government doesn't support it. Unless there was a rule stating it was illegal to take a census before this existed, shouldn't that be a huge red flag for taking this down?

jorgemf 9y ago
Without understanding the history of Spain and Cataluña it is easy to make false assumptions. I post a video in my original comment that talks about this. Take a look to it. The referendum is a big mistake and going against it it is also another big mistake. Things are being done the wrong way on both sides.
- marak830 9y ago
  Look I understand you have a horse in this race, but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference. Just because you don't agree with it, as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. I could stand on a hilltop and say my hairy left testicle is god and should be worshipped, that doesn't make it true(bloody hell I hope not). My point of view that while there may be unpopular views(some for good reason), banning them doesn't fix the problem. Education and rational conversation is the key(as long as they arnt backed by voilence: see ww2 for an example of when talking doesn't work)
  - jorgemf 9y ago
    First, it is against the law because the court has said so. Another topic of discussion is the law, but this is something some people want to talk about and there are way to do something like this. Some politics are open to discuss, most of them no (mostly because the use this as a distraction for other stuff). The referendum is a big mistake because of what you said, lack of communication and not willing to talk on both sides. I think it is very stupid, you have the central government full of corruption that uses Cataluña and the independence to get votes from the nationalist and as a distraction. You have the Catalan politics that want an independence but remaining in Europe, with (economic) support from the government of Spain and only want to change a little bit the law in their interest and don't provide economic resources to the rest of Spain. And at the same time the central government used the catalonians politics to get the votes they needed at the same time given them some privileges other parts of Spain doesn't have.
    - marak830 9y ago
      "First, it is against the law because the court has said so." .... What? If I said you couldn't talk about me slaughtering 1000 people would that be okay if I was an officer of the court. That's a stupid reason. "there are way to do something like this" - which are being blocked!(sorry to cut off a bit, but you can read up for full quote). "The referendum is a big mistake"...(he said more). You may be right, but who will know if they can't communicate. At the end of the day I don't agree nor disagree with your personal politics, but silencing an opponent only gives them more power in the long run, and in the short term makes everyone wonder what is being hidden. Edit: changed not to nor dn autocorrect Edit2: jorgemf -sory threads too long I can't reply to you. Look I don't 'disagree' with you per se, but I'll never agree with censorship. It doesn't matter who agreed to what, why should any government stop it's citizens from talking about an issue. The government is suppose to be a representive of the people, no mater what country you are in(if not, expect those same people to remove that government eventually). They may very well be wrong, but unless it is discussed in an open forum, it will only lead to resentment and eventually bloodshed. It has been a visible fact over human history, repressing the speech of the populace, has never worked well for the repressors.
alexasmyths 9y ago
"Actually I'd argue that it's more important because the government doesn't support it." A considerable number of Catalans don't support it either. When you have an 'unofficial referendum' - likely to be boycotted or ignored by those not support of it - you can possibly arrive at a situation wherein the 'majority of votes cast' opted for independence, but wherein this is not remotely an accurate reflection of the actual populations wishes. In politics, there's no such thing as 'a referendum that has no legal binding' - the results of the referendum, however inaccurate, will be used by political activists the world over as 'claims of legitimacy'. Either there is a clear, unambiguous, clearly worded, properly managed referendum (with some kind of legal status i.e. 'not binidng' or 'binding' or whatever) - or there is nothing. De-facto partisan-managed referendums are not good.
- marak830 9y ago
  "A considerable number of Catalans don't support it either." So what? Just ignore it then. As for the majority of votes, just tally them vs total population. Simple. But now that it's blocked, they have put it in the spotlight. "Either there is a clear, unambiguous, clearly worded, properly managed referendum (with some kind of legal status i.e. 'not binidng' or 'binding' or whatever) - or there is nothing." Oh bullshit, have you ever seen any political party say anything 100% clearly, that's just raising the bar. If it's a small minority voting, then why should they care? If it's something that may be popular... Well we're seeing where this is going now, arnt we.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    "So what? Just ignore it then." + If a considerable number of people ignore a referendum it loses it's legitimacy. "As for the majority of votes, just tally them vs total population. Simple." No. Absolutely not. This is not how either elections or referendums are done. "Oh bullshit, have you ever seen any political party say anything 100% clearly, that's just raising the bar." I'm afraid you are dead wrong. The 'wording' of a referendum is a very important and contentious thing - otherwise it loses legitimacy and legal standing. As for 'bullshit' - there is actually a law in Canada, called the 'Clarity Act' that legally requires referendum questions to be clear. This is because separatists want to soften the wording of the question 'i.e. we seek to renegotiate our status' - thereby getting the 10% or so on board who really don't want to separate, but want more power. Those against the referendum want a hard question like: "Do you want to separate from XYZ and loses your passport" etc.. "If it's a small minority voting, then why should they care?" Because the political entities who directed the 'bad referendum' will use it as political capital to flame the flames. Either it's done right - or not at all. Ambiguous referendums are a disaster for everyone.

enriquto 9y ago

Would you say the same thing if Chinese or Venezuelan courts banned google apps that give information "considered illegal" there? This is ridiculous. The app just gives a list of the schools to vote according to your address. Even if the referendum is "illegal" under spanish law, it is completely bananas to ban such an app.

ghostly_s 9y ago
I think in many first-world nations, distributing info intended to enable others to commit a crime is, itself, a crime. (Which is not to suggest I agree with the state's legal ruling here.) Edit: but of course the referendum itself being illegal does not necessarily imply that voting in it, is illegal. And it seems more reasonable that the state could determine the results of the referendum to be non-binding per their constitution, rather than being justified in preventing it from taking place.
- enriquto 9y ago
  OK, but voting in this referendum, even under current spanish law, is not actually commiting any crime.
  - ghostly_s 9y ago
    You're probably right, but I think Google could make an argument that any app which is even adjacent to "illegal activity" may be a violation of their ToS, regardless of the app's actual legal status. And there's much less argument to be made here for Google's obligation to tolerate this use-case because their store does not operate as a monopoly on the platform like Apple's does.
    - KekDemaga 9y ago
      Multiple backpage (a popular escort site) apps are currently in the store so that can't be the reason.
      - 9y ago

logicallee 9y ago

I think I will memorize and remember your comment to show that America is special and totally unique in the world. I presume you're a European, and you call it nothing special that the State forced the removal of a private form of expression. In America every single adult of average or slightly below average intelligence knows they have a first-amendment right to say whatever they want. The Supreme Court, which is totally separate from the executive and legislative branches, and has members appointed for life (who often don't end up beholden to the people who appointed them) interpret the Constitution with total independence. While you call Spain's action "nothing to see", America is a shining beacon of free speech whose transcendent importance has not even made it to the average educated person (you) in Europe, let alone the whole of its population. Anyone who objects to American exceptionalism would do well to reflect on the parent comment's nonchalance. >Just a bit of feedback. This weekend there is a referendum in Cataluña, a province of Spain, about their independentism. This is not supported by the central government and it is consider illegal, and that is the reason the app was removed from the PlayStore, the court ordered it. >Nothing so see here unless you want to talk about politics. >EDIT: as you want to talk about politics, them you should have a bit of background. I think this is a good video (spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4

jorgemf 9y ago
First, are you form the USA? Because America has also Venezuela, Cuba, and more countries. Second, are you telling me we are worse than you because of this after what your president have done? "Nothing to see here unless you want to talk about politics". The law is the law, Catalans supported the law and that law is what forbids an unilateral movement to break the country. Bear in mind the Catalans said this vote is valuable to consider themselves independents. There is a big discussion about this topic in Spain, with a lot of free speach. You should consider understand better the country you are talking about before make those claims to fulfill your "American ego".
- logicallee 9y ago
  Yes, the entirety of my comment refers to the United States. So, where you say "The law is the law", in the United States there is also a higher law which is the constitution, and which protects free speech. It's "stronger than" the law. Everybody in America knows this. So my point, which, respectfully, you have just confirmed, is that this idea has not made it back to Europe. You confirm this in your comment stating "the law is the law" and that people support it, and you state that this should be enough. (In the United States this is not enough, and what you describe cannot occur due to the philosophy and legal structure: if Congress passed a law making political discussion of something like the independence of a state illegal, then even if people supported that law, the supreme court would rule the law itself unconstitutional and it would be struck down. Because in the United States freedom of speech is higher than the law, and protected by the supreme court in the manner I described; it's a separate branch of government.)

CaptSpify 9y ago

rough summary for those who don't speak spanish?

jorgemf 9y ago
First that I am getting a lot of downvotes because I don't support any side and I will get more in this comment. It is hard to sum up everything. I am going to give you my biased opinion. We were a dictatorship 40 years ago, he died and put a king to govern Spain. The king created the democracy. We always had very different cultures (vasque country, cataluña). They got privileges during the democracy. Cataluña is an important province of Spain with strong economics (some of them because of the past privileges). They just decide as they have different language/culture they don't want to be part of spain and they want do things like they want (like any one that wants to be independent). The government (formed by people who supported or it is linked somehow to the dictatorship in the past) used the problem of Cataluña to get votes, but at the same time they make deals with the Catalans. Catalans always blame central government. The corruption is quite relevant in the country (all the country), the first Catalan politics who wanted the independence are under trials because of corruption, the same for the central government. Now, I think, some catalan politics want the independence to avoid the spanish law. The central government use the catalans to avoid talking about the corruption issues. Both sides are putting people against people. Only few people really want to have an open debate, but noone lets them. Fight is starting. We didn't even have an open debate to discuss the type of independence, like competletely independent or an associate state, but Catalans want a binding vote right now.
- wbillingsley 9y ago
  IndyRef didn't hammer out all the details first either. Neither did Brexit. Before the detail-hammering starts, it needs the decision that people actually want it in the first place (the referendum) otherwise it's all moot. A two-referendum model isn't necessarily a bad idea -- if you hold the first referendum on negotiating independence, and the second on executing it. Though I suspect you'd need to make that clear before the first referendum, otherwise it'd seem like "Hmm, that wasn't the answer we wanted; perhaps if we ask you the question again..." It having gone this far, though I could be wrong, I can't currently see denying a referendum working for anybody. Spain seems to be pursuing a kind of One Spain policy, and I doubt the Catalan populace will go along with that -- seems more likely to get their hackles up to say there's no way they could have independence even if they all wanted it.

ethbro 9y ago

As a side note, if we are talking about politics then this comes on the heels of the Kurdish vote to pursue independence from Iraq with 92% of voters in favor (I read 72% turn out). http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41440747 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41440747 Both the US and Britain condemned the vote, which is morally disgusting after the Kurds and Peshmerga supported both of them in at least 2 wars (Iraq War of 2003+ & fight against IS). It's okay when developed countries invade developing countries to "spread democracy", but when ethnic subgroups attempt to seek independence non-violently it's not?

jorgemf 9y ago
> but when ethnic subgroups attempt to seek independence non-violently it's not? I didn't say anything, just it is against the law and the constitution (the same Catalans signed). The big issue is that there is no an open debate for this. There is only fight without arguments. It is not clear what type of independence they are fighting for but they want to make a binding vote. And the central government doesn't want even to talk about a possible secession. They use it to gain votes in the rest of Spain (but at the same time they made negotiations with independants to change the law). This is more about corruption. The same way "spread the democracy" is more about getting local resources.
IIAOPSW 9y ago
I think you should read the US and UK words on this referendum as "saying no but nodding yes". For geopolitical reasons (see: Bosphorous straits) the US/Western Bloc can't afford to piss off Turkey. But in a vacuum I'm sure the US and Brits are perfectly fine to see a Kurdish state. The result is that the US and UK will pay lip service to being anti-secession while doing nothing to stop it on the ground.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  The US (and probably UK) don't want a Kurdish state formed out of the Kurdish areas of A Iraq because because, Syria, Iran, and Iraq have been united in opposing Kurdish separatism, and even if Iraq gets okay with it, a Kurdish state encourages separatists in Iran, Syria, and Turkey, and drives Syria and, more importantly, Turkey into deeper alignment with Iran. Ideologically, the US and UK might support the Kurds goals, but geopolitically they do not. And geopolitical, especially with the US, trumps ideals in the Middle East.

askvictor 9y ago

This isn't just about politics. True general purpose computing (i.e. free from the walled gardens of Google and Apple) wouldn't be able to block something like this; irrespective of what you think of the politics. We've taken the path where governments can decide what programs we can and can't run on our devices.

euyyn 9y ago
I guess if it were a PC program, the judge would need to order to the sites that host it to stop distributing it in Spain?
- askvictor 9y ago
  Which would mean any overseas sites wouldn't care as they'd be outside their jurisdiction, or Spain would need to implement a Great Firewall like China.
  - euyyn 9y ago
    Or the ISPs would be told to block the site. Not really sure how it's usually done for websites in general.