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Good. We should be striving for a more integrated world, not a world of separatism. People are naturally tribal. But tribalism must always be rejected. People
by meri_dian 9y ago
Good. We should be striving for a more integrated world, not a world of separatism.
People are naturally tribal. But tribalism must always be rejected.
People who hold onto tribal identities are excited by the prospect of political independence, but unless real conditions for that group are made genuinely intolerable, there is no excuse for separatism.
Catalan is one of the wealthiest parts of Spain. They are not being oppressed.
- koenigdavidmj 9y agoAnd apparently you make that happen by sending men with guns to deal with anyone who doesn't want to be in your larger tribe.
- meri_dian 9y agoIf someone doesn't want to be in the larger tribe just because they refuse to integrate, then they are in the wrong.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- elif 9y agoresistance is futile
- koenigdavidmj 9y agoWe used to call that Manifest Destiny.
- lostlogin 9y agoMaybe delete this comment, or think a bit then delete it.
- euyyn 9y agoIf you're talking about the situation in Spain, you're very misinformed. The judiciary police isn't doing anything at all based on people's political preference. That would be flagrantly illegal.
- DINKDINK 9y agoYour argument is essentially. "Good. We should be banning books with political viewpoints that I or the government disagree with"
- mdekkers 9y agoYour argument is essentially. "Good. We should be banning books with political viewpoints that I or the government disagree with" I am having serious difficulty seeing how OP´s statement and your statement are related.
- DINKDINK 9y agoOP's statement says that it's good that digital media ("books") is being banned by the government.
- sergiotapia 9y agoNegativo mijo, we must strive to accept cultures that can mesh well together. Imagine a world where everyone was the same, and nobody had a unique identity. It would be incredibly sad and sterile.
- meri_dian 9y agoI dont want everyone to be the same. I'm fine with cultural differences. But I want political unity.
- freehunter 9y agoOkay, then the US will just annex every other country. That way the entire world will have political unity, that's all you want right? Or would you expect your government to fight back on that?
- meri_dian 9y agoHuh? Your assumptions about me are wrong. If people are separate now then it's a bad idea to force them together. They should unify of their own accord. It can be a gradual process like with the EU. But if they are together now I'd want them to stay together, barring severe oppression of one party by another. It's like the strong nuclear force for societies.
- sievebrain 9y agoThe EU isn't unifying people of their own accord. Every time there's a referendum held anywhere on EU policies, the EU always loses yet the policies are put into effect anyway.
- sergiotapia 9y agoAs long as it's your political ideology, right comrade?
- mantas 9y agoShow me a single place where political unity of different cultures didn't undermine cultural diversity.
- alexnewman 9y agoWhy always. Can't we just have a tribe counsel ?
- meri_dian 9y agoAlways because tribalism implies 'us vs them'. Which is destructive.
- int_19h 9y agoIntegration is often just tribalism at a larger scale. In Russia, for example, there's a popular line of thought that basically denies that Ukrainians are a separate nation - the claim is that they're just a "misled" subset of Russia, that their language is just a particularly badly distorted Russian dialect etc. It's not about integration - it's about Russian domination. For another example, Turkey treats Kurds in a similar vein.
- Mikeb85 9y agoWell Ukraine never actually was a separate nation except very briefly after the revolution, then after the dissolution of the USSR. Also, Ukrainians are ethnically almost identical to European Russians, and more than half of them speak Russian. Ukrainian is an archaic dialect and probably would have died out if not for a resurgence in nationalism. Edit - to add to this, the way Ukrainian identity formed in the first place is that "Ukrainians" were the part of the Russian empire that came under occasional occupation by Western powers (Poland-Lithuania and Austria-Hungary), so they developed their own identity by virtue of essentially being Russians cut off from the empire (they kept Cyrillic writing, attempted to keep the Orthodox religion, etc...). Even in Gogol's writings he refers to the Russian Empire, not Ukraine as a nation (even if the current Ukrainian authorities have censored/modified his writings). Oh, and I'm an ethnic Ukrainian in Canada whose family originated from the part of Ukraine occupied by the Austro-Hungarian empire... Edit2 - Sorry, just facts. "Ukraine" never was a country until last century. Maybe one of you down-voters could point out a Ukrainian state pre-1919 that identified as Ukrainian. Because Kievan Rus wasn't Ukrainian, it was Rus-sian....
- jdoliner 9y agoShould Spain take this to heart and integrate with Catalan?
- meri_dian 9y agoMost of the other diverse parts of Spain aren't clamoring for independence from the collective, perhaps Catalan can follow their example.
- tumblen 9y agoYou don't even know what you're talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict "The Basque conflict, also known as the Spain–ETA conflict, was an armed and political conflict from 1959 to 2011 between Spain and the Basque National Liberation Movement, a group of social and political Basque organizations which sought independence from Spain and France. The movement was built around the separatist organization ETA[4][5] which had launched a campaign of attacks against Spanish administrations since 1959. ETA has been proscribed as a terrorist organization by the Spanish, British,[6] French[7] and American[8] authorities at different moments. The conflict took place mostly on Spanish soil, although to a smaller degree it was also present in France, which was primarily used as a safe haven by ETA members. It was the longest running violent conflict in modern Western Europe.[9] It has been sometimes referred to as "Europe's longest war".[10]" Catalunya is trying to find a peaceful, democratic path to resolving the issues in their region.
- thinkingemote 9y agoNationalism is okay if the nation is being oppressed (and are somewhat non violent) see Scottish nationalism, Catalan nationalism, and later in this sub-thread about a Russian situation. Tribal and group identity is welcomed and defended if those in that group are at risk. I'm in agreement that tribal and group thinking is bad, and I'm also possibly in disagreement because I see that there is also oppression and marginalisation of groups by other groups. I'm not sure what the solution is apart from talking about this clearly.
- dqpb 9y agoNationalism is okay if the nation is being oppressed Define "is ok"
- x220 9y agoIf you are being oppressed based on ethnicity, it is fine to band together based on ethnicity to secure your rights.
- dqpb 9y agoDownvoted... Can someone point me to the HN guideline that forbids requesting an OP to clarify what they are saying? - is ok legally - is ok morally - is ok politically - is ok strategically - is ok accord me - is ok according to most people - is ok according to the opposition Tribal and group identity is welcomed and defended if those in that group are at risk. Welcomed by who? - welcomed by me - welcomed by everyone else in that group - welcomed by everyone outside of that group - welcomed by some people outside of that group What are you even saying? Is this a personal manifesto? Is this alluding to some sociological principal, political philosophy, statistic poll? For a forum geared towards engineers, the quality of thinking here on HN is depressingly low.
- hacking_again 9y agoIMO, your original comment is too brief, reading as antagonistic. You weren't just politely asking for clarification along with an expression of your understanding. And anyway, they're just internet points, who cares. I throw my account away when I get to 100, keeps me from getting worked up about it.
- lotharbot 9y agoAnti-separatism is often just tribalism based on the dominant tribe.
- meri_dian 9y agoThere can only be a relatively dominant tribe if 1. The smaller tribes refuse to join with the larger tribe or 2. The larger tribe refuses to accept the smaller tribes. Both are bad and should be rejected.
- abiox 9y ago> Both are bad and should be rejected why?
- lotharbot 9y agoregarding 2: there's some nuance needed for what it means to "accept" the smaller tribes -- on whose terms? (Which leads directly to 1 -- if the larger tribe's terms are onerous, unfair, or oppressive, the smaller tribe should reject integration.) A friend of mine is at an institution which has just started a "diversity" initiative to get people with different ethnic backgrounds in to the institution. But it's unclear whether they're willing to accept different perspectives, or whether they're really just looking for people who think the same but have different external appearances. Does it really make sense to join a "tribe" that wants to wipe out your distinctiveness and make you think and act just like they already do?
- euyyn 9y agoSo what would be the dominant tribe for all of us that want the EU to integrate further?
- lotharbot 9y agoI'm not particularly aware of the details of EU politics and couldn't name the major factions. But I will point out that "integrate further" can itself become a tribal identity -- in some cases a fairly oppressive one, if "integrate" is taken to mean "get rid of any culturally distinctive ideas or practices that might possibly cause friction". Not saying this is specifically true of EU integration, just that it's a possible form of tribalism.
- hectorlorenzo 9y agoThe reason why this referendum is illegal is because it attempts to "break the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation” (according to the Spanish constitution). Why is one tribalism better than the other?
- meri_dian 9y agoLarger more inclusive tribalism is better than small scale tribalism. It's a continuous process working towards unity and integration of the human tribe.
- hyperpape 9y agoThe US is more than 300 million people which is nice and big, but the most nationalistic people here have yet to transition into "working towards the unity and integration of the human tribe."
- musage 9y agoThe way I see it, tribalism isn't unity. Unity, meaningful and lasting unity, that is, exists between people who are in harmony with themselves and each other. It doesn't require uniformity, it requires the absence of deformation through all sorts of abuses big and small. I don't need to know the backstory a peaceful person or animal to realize they're peaceful and be at peace in their presence. Tribalism on the other hand is people having a lot of ideas about who they are and what makes them valuable, and mutilating each other and themselves to make them seem more real and dignified. Unity is born out of life, tribalism is born out of fear, it's the ghost forever trying to make its presence known to life and failing to move even a match stick. In a nutshell.
- oh_sigh 9y agoIf you want to strive for a more integrated world, be the change you want to see! Take a homeless man off the street and let him sleep on your couch.
- meri_dian 9y agoI want a politically integrated world, not one where homeless people are sleeping on my couch
- Zigurd 9y agoThis is neither nationalism nor separatism driven by the desire to exclude or shut out some "other." This is devolution of power over practical matters like budgets to a more-local level. It is in part enabled by transnationalism as embodied in the EU.