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Google removes Catalan referendum app from Google Play after court order
- enriquto 9y agonotice that the app is still usable from elsewhere, it is only banned in the spanish market app (source: I have just downloaded it from france).
- jarofgreen 9y agoConfirmed from the UK.
- meri_dian 9y agoGood. We should be striving for a more integrated world, not a world of separatism. People are naturally tribal. But tribalism must always be rejected. People who hold onto tribal identities are excited by the prospect of political independence, but unless real conditions for that group are made genuinely intolerable, there is no excuse for separatism. Catalan is one of the wealthiest parts of Spain. They are not being oppressed.
- koenigdavidmj 9y agoAnd apparently you make that happen by sending men with guns to deal with anyone who doesn't want to be in your larger tribe.
- meri_dian 9y agoIf someone doesn't want to be in the larger tribe just because they refuse to integrate, then they are in the wrong.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- elif 9y agoresistance is futile
- koenigdavidmj 9y agoWe used to call that Manifest Destiny.
- lostlogin 9y agoMaybe delete this comment, or think a bit then delete it.
- euyyn 9y agoIf you're talking about the situation in Spain, you're very misinformed. The judiciary police isn't doing anything at all based on people's political preference. That would be flagrantly illegal.
- DINKDINK 9y agoYour argument is essentially. "Good. We should be banning books with political viewpoints that I or the government disagree with"
- mdekkers 9y agoYour argument is essentially. "Good. We should be banning books with political viewpoints that I or the government disagree with" I am having serious difficulty seeing how OP´s statement and your statement are related.
- DINKDINK 9y agoOP's statement says that it's good that digital media ("books") is being banned by the government.
- sergiotapia 9y agoNegativo mijo, we must strive to accept cultures that can mesh well together. Imagine a world where everyone was the same, and nobody had a unique identity. It would be incredibly sad and sterile.
- meri_dian 9y agoI dont want everyone to be the same. I'm fine with cultural differences. But I want political unity.
- freehunter 9y agoOkay, then the US will just annex every other country. That way the entire world will have political unity, that's all you want right? Or would you expect your government to fight back on that?
- meri_dian 9y agoHuh? Your assumptions about me are wrong. If people are separate now then it's a bad idea to force them together. They should unify of their own accord. It can be a gradual process like with the EU. But if they are together now I'd want them to stay together, barring severe oppression of one party by another. It's like the strong nuclear force for societies.
- sievebrain 9y agoThe EU isn't unifying people of their own accord. Every time there's a referendum held anywhere on EU policies, the EU always loses yet the policies are put into effect anyway.
- sergiotapia 9y agoAs long as it's your political ideology, right comrade?
- mantas 9y agoShow me a single place where political unity of different cultures didn't undermine cultural diversity.
- alexnewman 9y agoWhy always. Can't we just have a tribe counsel ?
- meri_dian 9y agoAlways because tribalism implies 'us vs them'. Which is destructive.
- int_19h 9y agoIntegration is often just tribalism at a larger scale. In Russia, for example, there's a popular line of thought that basically denies that Ukrainians are a separate nation - the claim is that they're just a "misled" subset of Russia, that their language is just a particularly badly distorted Russian dialect etc. It's not about integration - it's about Russian domination. For another example, Turkey treats Kurds in a similar vein.
- Mikeb85 9y agoWell Ukraine never actually was a separate nation except very briefly after the revolution, then after the dissolution of the USSR. Also, Ukrainians are ethnically almost identical to European Russians, and more than half of them speak Russian. Ukrainian is an archaic dialect and probably would have died out if not for a resurgence in nationalism. Edit - to add to this, the way Ukrainian identity formed in the first place is that "Ukrainians" were the part of the Russian empire that came under occasional occupation by Western powers (Poland-Lithuania and Austria-Hungary), so they developed their own identity by virtue of essentially being Russians cut off from the empire (they kept Cyrillic writing, attempted to keep the Orthodox religion, etc...). Even in Gogol's writings he refers to the Russian Empire, not Ukraine as a nation (even if the current Ukrainian authorities have censored/modified his writings). Oh, and I'm an ethnic Ukrainian in Canada whose family originated from the part of Ukraine occupied by the Austro-Hungarian empire... Edit2 - Sorry, just facts. "Ukraine" never was a country until last century. Maybe one of you down-voters could point out a Ukrainian state pre-1919 that identified as Ukrainian. Because Kievan Rus wasn't Ukrainian, it was Rus-sian....
- jdoliner 9y agoShould Spain take this to heart and integrate with Catalan?
- meri_dian 9y agoMost of the other diverse parts of Spain aren't clamoring for independence from the collective, perhaps Catalan can follow their example.
- tumblen 9y agoYou don't even know what you're talking about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_conflict "The Basque conflict, also known as the Spain–ETA conflict, was an armed and political conflict from 1959 to 2011 between Spain and the Basque National Liberation Movement, a group of social and political Basque organizations which sought independence from Spain and France. The movement was built around the separatist organization ETA[4][5] which had launched a campaign of attacks against Spanish administrations since 1959. ETA has been proscribed as a terrorist organization by the Spanish, British,[6] French[7] and American[8] authorities at different moments. The conflict took place mostly on Spanish soil, although to a smaller degree it was also present in France, which was primarily used as a safe haven by ETA members. It was the longest running violent conflict in modern Western Europe.[9] It has been sometimes referred to as "Europe's longest war".[10]" Catalunya is trying to find a peaceful, democratic path to resolving the issues in their region.
- thinkingemote 9y agoNationalism is okay if the nation is being oppressed (and are somewhat non violent) see Scottish nationalism, Catalan nationalism, and later in this sub-thread about a Russian situation. Tribal and group identity is welcomed and defended if those in that group are at risk. I'm in agreement that tribal and group thinking is bad, and I'm also possibly in disagreement because I see that there is also oppression and marginalisation of groups by other groups. I'm not sure what the solution is apart from talking about this clearly.
- dqpb 9y agoNationalism is okay if the nation is being oppressed Define "is ok"
- x220 9y agoIf you are being oppressed based on ethnicity, it is fine to band together based on ethnicity to secure your rights.
- dqpb 9y agoDownvoted... Can someone point me to the HN guideline that forbids requesting an OP to clarify what they are saying? - is ok legally - is ok morally - is ok politically - is ok strategically - is ok accord me - is ok according to most people - is ok according to the opposition Tribal and group identity is welcomed and defended if those in that group are at risk. Welcomed by who? - welcomed by me - welcomed by everyone else in that group - welcomed by everyone outside of that group - welcomed by some people outside of that group What are you even saying? Is this a personal manifesto? Is this alluding to some sociological principal, political philosophy, statistic poll? For a forum geared towards engineers, the quality of thinking here on HN is depressingly low.
- hacking_again 9y agoIMO, your original comment is too brief, reading as antagonistic. You weren't just politely asking for clarification along with an expression of your understanding. And anyway, they're just internet points, who cares. I throw my account away when I get to 100, keeps me from getting worked up about it.
- lotharbot 9y agoAnti-separatism is often just tribalism based on the dominant tribe.
- meri_dian 9y agoThere can only be a relatively dominant tribe if 1. The smaller tribes refuse to join with the larger tribe or 2. The larger tribe refuses to accept the smaller tribes. Both are bad and should be rejected.
- abiox 9y ago> Both are bad and should be rejected why?
- lotharbot 9y agoregarding 2: there's some nuance needed for what it means to "accept" the smaller tribes -- on whose terms? (Which leads directly to 1 -- if the larger tribe's terms are onerous, unfair, or oppressive, the smaller tribe should reject integration.) A friend of mine is at an institution which has just started a "diversity" initiative to get people with different ethnic backgrounds in to the institution. But it's unclear whether they're willing to accept different perspectives, or whether they're really just looking for people who think the same but have different external appearances. Does it really make sense to join a "tribe" that wants to wipe out your distinctiveness and make you think and act just like they already do?
- euyyn 9y agoSo what would be the dominant tribe for all of us that want the EU to integrate further?
- lotharbot 9y agoI'm not particularly aware of the details of EU politics and couldn't name the major factions. But I will point out that "integrate further" can itself become a tribal identity -- in some cases a fairly oppressive one, if "integrate" is taken to mean "get rid of any culturally distinctive ideas or practices that might possibly cause friction". Not saying this is specifically true of EU integration, just that it's a possible form of tribalism.
- hectorlorenzo 9y agoThe reason why this referendum is illegal is because it attempts to "break the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation” (according to the Spanish constitution). Why is one tribalism better than the other?
- meri_dian 9y agoLarger more inclusive tribalism is better than small scale tribalism. It's a continuous process working towards unity and integration of the human tribe.
- hyperpape 9y agoThe US is more than 300 million people which is nice and big, but the most nationalistic people here have yet to transition into "working towards the unity and integration of the human tribe."
- musage 9y agoThe way I see it, tribalism isn't unity. Unity, meaningful and lasting unity, that is, exists between people who are in harmony with themselves and each other. It doesn't require uniformity, it requires the absence of deformation through all sorts of abuses big and small. I don't need to know the backstory a peaceful person or animal to realize they're peaceful and be at peace in their presence. Tribalism on the other hand is people having a lot of ideas about who they are and what makes them valuable, and mutilating each other and themselves to make them seem more real and dignified. Unity is born out of life, tribalism is born out of fear, it's the ghost forever trying to make its presence known to life and failing to move even a match stick. In a nutshell.
- oh_sigh 9y agoIf you want to strive for a more integrated world, be the change you want to see! Take a homeless man off the street and let him sleep on your couch.
- meri_dian 9y agoI want a politically integrated world, not one where homeless people are sleeping on my couch
- Zigurd 9y agoThis is neither nationalism nor separatism driven by the desire to exclude or shut out some "other." This is devolution of power over practical matters like budgets to a more-local level. It is in part enabled by transnationalism as embodied in the EU.
- jorgemf 9y agoJust a bit of feedback. This weekend there is a referendum in Cataluña, a province of Spain, about their independentism. This is not supported by the central government and it is consider illegal, and that is the reason the app was removed from the PlayStore, the court ordered it. Nothing so see here unless you want to talk about politics. EDIT: as you want to talk about politics, them you should have a bit of background. I think this is a good video (spanish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbeyN2fuz_4
- marak830 9y agoActually I'd argue that it's more important because the government doesn't support it. Unless there was a rule stating it was illegal to take a census before this existed, shouldn't that be a huge red flag for taking this down?
- jorgemf 9y agoWithout understanding the history of Spain and Cataluña it is easy to make false assumptions. I post a video in my original comment that talks about this. Take a look to it. The referendum is a big mistake and going against it it is also another big mistake. Things are being done the wrong way on both sides.
- marak830 9y agoLook I understand you have a horse in this race, but how can anyone be breaking the law by stating their preference. Just because you don't agree with it, as long as there is no physical harm, or enticement to cause harm, than it shouldn't be banned. I could stand on a hilltop and say my hairy left testicle is god and should be worshipped, that doesn't make it true(bloody hell I hope not). My point of view that while there may be unpopular views(some for good reason), banning them doesn't fix the problem. Education and rational conversation is the key(as long as they arnt backed by voilence: see ww2 for an example of when talking doesn't work)
- 9y ago
- marak830 9y agoI often wonder at what point should we (as programmers) ignore a countries ruling if we disagree with it. (Note I'm not arguing for or against here, I don't know enough about the situation but thought it may be an interesting conversation). We (generally) have the knowledge to get around most restrictions, some of us can even bypass enforced walls. I do wonder what it would take for a large subset of techs to say 'screw this, we're going to flood their airwaves, satlinks, reroute all out out traffic' etc. (Yes I know this is an impossibility, I'm theorizing here). Edit(fat thumbs(
- organsnyder 9y agoDespite the borderless appearance of connected networks, we still operate within society. We either need to operate within societal rules, or make an overt decision to subvert them. No different than any other activity, really, except that we may not live in the jurisdiction we're respecting/subverting (though mail fraud has been a thing for hundreds of years).
- marak830 9y agoYou are right, and honestly the more I think about it, the more I worry about it being a bad idea. Or less a bad idea, and more a 'most likely to steer in a bad Direction's sort of idea as, honestly, humanity doesn't really have a 'decent' direction yet haha.
- ericmarcos 9y agoThe spanish government is trying to ban everything related to the referendum: physical urns, ballot papers, websites and apps, violating the most basic human rights. However, for each ban, 10 new websites/apps/bots will pop up. I created a chatbot so that people can vote at referendumvirtual.cat and it went viral in the last 48h. People will always find ways to excercise freedom of expression and decide its own future in peace.
- euyyn 9y agoIt's not the Spanish government, it's the Courts in Catalonia. These are orders from the judge in the Tribunal Superior de Justicia de Cataluña.
- lsaferite 9y agoWho seems to be backing the Spanish government in suppressing the referendum.
- 627467 9y agoYou seem to imply that backing the ref or independence is unanimous or that the Catalan courts are arbitrarily following the bidding of Madrid.
- lsaferite 9y agoI have no skin in the game, but I think that in a democracy if you forbid the people from at least expressing a yes/no on whether they should continue to be governed by the group currently governing them, you are breeding discontent. If a democracy is nominally a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, then the legitimacy of the government is driven by the continued support of the citizens. If a portion (or region) of your populous wants to no longer be collectively governed by the current group and would instead rather form their own government more attuned to their needs, why not at least let them find out if the other people in their group agree? I personally think any democratic government should allow for succession. So, to your point, perhaps the judge is just 100% about following the law, even if they disagree. They could just as well be a 'stay' voter imposing their will on others. In either case, the underlying laws that are forbidding the vote, binding or not, are what I find objectionable. But again, I have no skin in that particular game and am just a bystander.
- smegel 9y agoPretty sad to see this happening in a western country, in the EU no less.
- PunchTornado 9y agoYou mean enforcing the rule of law? I hope the law is enforced everywhere otherwise why have it? I am from Barca and this referendum shouldn't happen. We have other issues that are more important like housing. Not all people here are for the referendum. Far from it. Wasting public money and ressources when people spend half their salaries on rent. Disgusting!
- jknightco 9y agoYou say you're from Barna but you call it Barça so I don't really know what to believe here.
- euyyn 9y agoMaybe he plays for Barça?
- smegel 9y agoThere are just laws that protect and maintain civil society and there are unjust laws used to oppress minorities. Who does this referendum hurt? Who is damaged by it? Where is the victim? Voting is at the heart of democracy, and laws that prohibit a group of people from speaking out violate the spirit of democracy. When you take it further and try and shut down people even speaking about it you are even further down the authoritarian path. And do you realize saying "there are more important and mundane issues" is exactly the kind of reasoning actual dictators use to run actual dictatorships. Democracy is obviously important and people care about it as much as mundane issues, which is probably why this is happening.
- anorphirith 9y agoThis is very bad, people should be able to install any app that they want as long as the app manufacturer / owner is ok with it. and they should be able to keep it on their own device for as long as they wish. Google or a government shouldn't have any say in this
- LeoNatan25 9y agoOh? Without going into whether this app in particular is good, should an app that allows set up of child pornography or murder be allowed “as long as the app manufacturer / owner is ok with it”?
- duncan_bayne 9y agoThis is one area in which Android is morally superior to iOS. Even if an app is pulled from Google's app store, you can still download and install the app from an APK. Despite you being the nominal owner of your iOS device, Apple gives you no such option.
- gaius 9y agoThe developer kit lets you run anything you want. How do you think apps get written in the first place? Rooting Android phones may be more commonplace sure, but claiming Apple gives "no such option" is disingenuous.
- erispoe 9y agoYou don't need to root your phone to install whatever apk you want on Android. Just download and install the app.
- duncan_bayne 9y agoFirstly, you don't have to root an Android device you own in order to install software on it other than through the Google store. It's just a setting (off by default, I assume to create a slightly higher bar for novice users). Secondly, unless I'm mistaken, the program you mention doesn't allow you to distribute your software to other "regular" iOS users.
- igaray 9y agoDo no evil indeed
- gasguru 9y ago..I don't get these Spaniards, allowing the referendum, they would have won by about 65% of Catalans voting against Catalan independence, if I can believe the poll numbers I've seen: "~85% want's to vote, but only ~41% of Catalans wanted to vote Yes to an Independent Catalonia" => 0.41 * 0.85 = 0.3485, leaving 1 - (0.41 * 0.85) = 0.6515 likely No votes. ..now, the Spanish government is proving itself anti-democratic, just like it was after Hitler and Mussolini helped Franco make Spain a dictatorship.