5 ms·

> Seems weird to come from a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed and then upon success saying, yeah but I don't li

> Seems weird to come from a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed and then upon success saying, yeah but I don't like paying for it. Succeed at what? What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? Their returns are fixed by the government, and even when they're working overseas (earning way more money) the government is kind enough to even it out. It may surprise you, but it is hard work to be a doctor. These folks are basically forced to work however long is required by the state in a country where they're probably not even allowed on the internet, with a government which was built on tricking peasant farmers into willing their land to a psychopathic dictator who killed everyone who got in his way. The conditions they work under have every feature of slavery, even if the clothes they put on look professional. A 34 y/o American doctor, even if they are somehow still paying off school, had the personal opportunity to take on that burden. Every working person in Cuba, peasants, mechanics, and seamstresses alike, takes on the burden of training you as a doctor. Everyone, including the doctor, spends their entire life paying it off.

BadassFractal 9y ago
Watch out, this goes against the oh so currently hot narrative that capitalism is bad and the government providing "to each according to his needs" is the silver bullet.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  Take a picture of a street in Cuba, look at the buildings, the vehicles if it's a nice one. Every nice thing (or thing that looks like it was once nice) you see in the picture was produced by capital markets; and it looks like the 1940s because because the capital markets stopped functioning in the 1940s.
- dang 9y ago
  Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jrochkind1 9y ago
> What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? Hmm, do you think most doctors in the U.S. are only in it for monetary rewards, and don't find any other part of the job rewarding? I don't think I want that doctor.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  They're in it to have a good life. To some extent that enjoyment can come from serving patients, but they would also like to have a good life at home. Is it so much to ask that people who spend all day saving and improving lives (yes, for pay) should be paid pretty well relative to the supply? In any walk of life in a capital system, your pay is determined by how you serve people. Doctors serve the very basis of their patients' lives. If you can put a price on that, it should be pretty darn high.
  - jrochkind1 9y ago
    I think everyone working an honest job should be payed pretty well (not sure what you mean about 'relative to the supply'), at least enough to have a good life, for sure. Is it too much to ask that everyone have enough to live a good life? Who doesn't deserve a good life because of their occupation? Nobody. I don't know there's any reason doctors should get exceptionally high incomes (except that in the U.S. they have to pay back exceptionally high student loans for the first decade-ish, of course).
    - microcolonel 9y ago
      By "relative to supply", I mean that if there are far more than enough doctors in a given region or scenario or specialty, the price could go down and it would be fair. If you don't think that doctoring should earn especially high incomes, then you have not seen a doctor work, and perhaps you've never been gravely injured.
      - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
>Succeed at what? What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? I would say the success of being a doctor at all but it seems that to you success is purely a function of wealth. In that case these people could have left Cuba before using it's free education. It's highly hypocritical to use all the benefits of the Cuban system and then be upset when you also have to help pay into it. >It may surprise you, but it is hard work to be a doctor. Nope, I totally get that. >with a government which was built on tricking peasant farmers into willing their land to a psychopathic dictator who killed everyone who got in his way. Oh lord, put the overreaction away. How many words do you think I would have to change in this sentence to make it reflect America's founding relation between wealthy British WASPs and native americans? >The conditions they work under have every feature of slavery, even if the clothes they put on look professional. I understand you don't like communism but really the hyperbole man... and shame on you for trivializing slavery. These doctors all knew what the Cuban system was, they chose to use Cuba's excellent medical education program which is provided for free and which can only be provided, again, for free because it taxes it's citizens heavily and now that they have received that benefit, want to rescind on it's price. >A 34 y/o American doctor, even if they are somehow still paying off school, had the personal opportunity to take on that burden. Ah but how many Americans really get a shot at medical school? In the most recent year for which quintile census data are available, more than three-quarters of medical students came from families in the top two quintiles of family income. [0] And you should check that citation, Figure 2 is particularly damning. Essentially, these Cuban doctors face the reality that had they been born in the United States there is a significant percentage of them that never would have had a shot at attending medical school in the first place. You could also take a look at the Wired article[1] that I found that linked from, it's about how poor American students are actually going to Cuba for education. In effect, Cuba that poor communist country is to a certain extent actually subsidizing vital parts of our healthcare system that happen to be less lucrative: Most of the school’s American graduates go into family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics—all fields facing major doctor shortages and all fields on the low end of the doctor pay scale.[1] Thanks Cuba! >Every working person in Cuba, peasants, mechanics, and seamstresses alike, takes on the burden of training you as a doctor. Everyone, including the doctor, spends their entire life paying it off. Can I just change the framing of this a little bit, tell me what you think: Every working person in Cuba, peasants, mechanics, and seamstresses alike, chips in to train you as a doctor. Everyone, including the doctor, continues to chip in to train the next generation of doctors. [0] https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf [1] https://www.wired.com/2016/03/students-ditching-america-medical-school-cuba/ https://www.wired.com/2016/03/students-ditching-america-medi...

BadassFractal 9y ago

Watch out, this goes against the oh so currently hot narrative that capitalism is bad and the government providing "to each according to his needs" is the silver bullet.

microcolonel 9y ago
Take a picture of a street in Cuba, look at the buildings, the vehicles if it's a nice one. Every nice thing (or thing that looks like it was once nice) you see in the picture was produced by capital markets; and it looks like the 1940s because because the capital markets stopped functioning in the 1940s.
dang 9y ago
Would you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to HN?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jrochkind1 9y ago

> What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? Hmm, do you think most doctors in the U.S. are only in it for monetary rewards, and don't find any other part of the job rewarding? I don't think I want that doctor.

microcolonel 9y ago
They're in it to have a good life. To some extent that enjoyment can come from serving patients, but they would also like to have a good life at home. Is it so much to ask that people who spend all day saving and improving lives (yes, for pay) should be paid pretty well relative to the supply? In any walk of life in a capital system, your pay is determined by how you serve people. Doctors serve the very basis of their patients' lives. If you can put a price on that, it should be pretty darn high.
- jrochkind1 9y ago
  I think everyone working an honest job should be payed pretty well (not sure what you mean about 'relative to the supply'), at least enough to have a good life, for sure. Is it too much to ask that everyone have enough to live a good life? Who doesn't deserve a good life because of their occupation? Nobody. I don't know there's any reason doctors should get exceptionally high incomes (except that in the U.S. they have to pay back exceptionally high student loans for the first decade-ish, of course).
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    By "relative to supply", I mean that if there are far more than enough doctors in a given region or scenario or specialty, the price could go down and it would be fair. If you don't think that doctoring should earn especially high incomes, then you have not seen a doctor work, and perhaps you've never been gravely injured.
    - frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago

>Succeed at what? What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? I would say the success of being a doctor at all but it seems that to you success is purely a function of wealth. In that case these people could have left Cuba before using it's free education. It's highly hypocritical to use all the benefits of the Cuban system and then be upset when you also have to help pay into it. >It may surprise you, but it is hard work to be a doctor. Nope, I totally get that. >with a government which was built on tricking peasant farmers into willing their land to a psychopathic dictator who killed everyone who got in his way. Oh lord, put the overreaction away. How many words do you think I would have to change in this sentence to make it reflect America's founding relation between wealthy British WASPs and native americans? >The conditions they work under have every feature of slavery, even if the clothes they put on look professional. I understand you don't like communism but really the hyperbole man... and shame on you for trivializing slavery. These doctors all knew what the Cuban system was, they chose to use Cuba's excellent medical education program which is provided for free and which can only be provided, again, for free because it taxes it's citizens heavily and now that they have received that benefit, want to rescind on it's price. >A 34 y/o American doctor, even if they are somehow still paying off school, had the personal opportunity to take on that burden. Ah but how many Americans really get a shot at medical school? In the most recent year for which quintile census data are available, more than three-quarters of medical students came from families in the top two quintiles of family income. [0] And you should check that citation, Figure 2 is particularly damning. Essentially, these Cuban doctors face the reality that had they been born in the United States there is a significant percentage of them that never would have had a shot at attending medical school in the first place. You could also take a look at the Wired article[1] that I found that linked from, it's about how poor American students are actually going to Cuba for education. In effect, Cuba that poor communist country is to a certain extent actually subsidizing vital parts of our healthcare system that happen to be less lucrative: Most of the school’s American graduates go into family medicine, internal medicine, or pediatrics—all fields facing major doctor shortages and all fields on the low end of the doctor pay scale.[1] Thanks Cuba! >Every working person in Cuba, peasants, mechanics, and seamstresses alike, takes on the burden of training you as a doctor. Everyone, including the doctor, spends their entire life paying it off. Can I just change the framing of this a little bit, tell me what you think: Every working person in Cuba, peasants, mechanics, and seamstresses alike, chips in to train you as a doctor. Everyone, including the doctor, continues to chip in to train the next generation of doctors. [0] https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf https://www.aamc.org/download/102338/data/aibvol8no1.pdf [1] https://www.wired.com/2016/03/students-ditching-america-medical-school-cuba/ https://www.wired.com/2016/03/students-ditching-america-medi...