4 ms·

I would be interested if it had the original hardware. What are the challenges in producing new C64 (and NES and SNES) with the same hardware? I believe there

I would be interested if it had the original hardware. What are the challenges in producing new C64 (and NES and SNES) with the same hardware? I believe there are a lot of modern Genesis copies using the same hardware.

rhizome 9y ago
You can still get 6502s, but the SID chip has not been manufactured for years. The SID has long been successfully emulated, but I don't know how practical that would be to include in a 6502 box.
- cr0sh 9y ago
  > The SID has long been successfully emulated Emulated, but from what I understand, not perfectly. Mainly because the SID was a hybrid digital and analog IC - and it's that analog part that made it unique. Also - I don't think (I could be wrong) that any successful reverse engineering of the chip was ever done, nor do I think that there were any or much documentation about the chip (that is, official docs)? It was very much one of those custom chips made for one specific purpose that wasn't used in any other product (this was a common thing in many home computers of the 1980s).
  - busterarm 9y ago
    Actually the opposite. The demoscene has done phenomenal work squeezing all the tricks they can out of that chip. Some of its quirks have been used to great advantage in demos over the years.
  - exlurker 9y ago
    It was originally conceived as a multi-purpose synth chip. Bob Yannes, designer: "When I designed the SID chip, I was attempting to create a single-chip synthesizer voice, which hopefully would find it's way into polyphonic/polytimbral synthesizers. I never realized this however." http://sid.kubarth.com/articles/interview_bob_yannes.html http://sid.kubarth.com/articles/interview_bob_yannes.html
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Thanks both. I was relying mostly on the existence of the SIDStation some years back.
- boomlinde 9y ago
  AFAIK, you can't buy new 6502s any more (nor can you buy the 6510 actually used in the C64). You can buy 65c02 chips, but those are slightly incompatible with the 6502 and 6510 on the opcode level.
  - jhbadger 9y ago
    Not really significantly though. The Apple //c (and some ][es) had 65c02s rather than the 6502 in the ][ and ][+, but they could still run all the old software.
    - boomlinde 9y ago
      There are undocumented opcodes that still perform useful operations on the NMOS 6502, for example loading the A and X registers simultaneously, decrementing and comparing memory, along with a variety of more exotic instructions that can replace quite long sequences of equivalent "valid" opcodes. These are NOPs on the 65c02. I know little about the Apple 2 series, but in quite some C64 software, these operations are used wherever they can save a few cycles. Mostly demos.
IntelMiner 9y ago
Likely cost Unless you're aiming for accuracy, it's a lot cheaper to simply put a cheap little SoC on board, cover it in epoxy and ship it
reaperducer 9y ago
No need to build new ones when there are so many old ones available. The Goodwill online auction always has two or three of them for around $30. http://www.shopgoodwill.com http://www.shopgoodwill.com (Note that Goodwill recently updated its web site and apparently kicked many of the regional organizations out, so supply has been lower lately. Hopefully when the regionals get up to speed the supply will increase again.)
- biggieshellz 9y ago
  They were definitely built to a price, though, and they have a lot of reliability issues now: * The (epoxy-potted, non-serviceable) power supply fails (and the resulting voltage increase takes out the 4164 DRAM chips). * The PLA is not heatsinked, runs hot, and fails. * The MOS replacements for standard 74xx logic chips are notoriously unreliable. You're better off finding a used one that's been tested with a TV -- "powers on" is not enough. In addition, the Goodwill ones (at least in the USA) are NTSC, whereas a lot of the later European games were PAL-only. If you want to play those games, you end up having to find a cracked, NTSC-fixed version of them.
ashark 9y ago
Modern, real-hardware NES: https://www.analogue.co/pages/nt-mini https://www.analogue.co/pages/nt-mini FPGA NES: http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78 http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_i...
- ashark 9y ago
  Too late for me to edit, but the Analogue-NT Mini is also FPGA. I got that wrong. Pretty sure the original NT was fully hardware, not FPGA, but I don't think it's available anymore. Main difference between the two linked products, then, aside from appearance and maybe build quality (can't say which is better, don't own either), is output options, as best I can tell (the NT has a lot of AV out options). And price, obviously. [EDIT] The reason video out options are important, aside from aesthetics, is that some peripherals require a CRT. Notably the Zapper.
- ant6n 9y ago
  Ouch, 450$.
gerdesj 9y ago
Maybe not quite what you had in mind but: https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/index.php/c64p https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/index.php/c64p How can you put the original hardware into a case that is half the size? There is no way that the bits inside the case of my recently revived C64 would ever fit into this thing. Even if they cram a "real" SID and VIC etc into it then at least the motherboard and rather a lot of other things have to be rather different.
Jaruzel 9y ago
You can buy a NEW C64 motherboard: https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/c64-reloaded-mk2.html https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/c64-r... All you need is the chips from a dead old one.

rhizome 9y ago

You can still get 6502s, but the SID chip has not been manufactured for years. The SID has long been successfully emulated, but I don't know how practical that would be to include in a 6502 box.

cr0sh 9y ago
> The SID has long been successfully emulated Emulated, but from what I understand, not perfectly. Mainly because the SID was a hybrid digital and analog IC - and it's that analog part that made it unique. Also - I don't think (I could be wrong) that any successful reverse engineering of the chip was ever done, nor do I think that there were any or much documentation about the chip (that is, official docs)? It was very much one of those custom chips made for one specific purpose that wasn't used in any other product (this was a common thing in many home computers of the 1980s).
- busterarm 9y ago
  Actually the opposite. The demoscene has done phenomenal work squeezing all the tricks they can out of that chip. Some of its quirks have been used to great advantage in demos over the years.
- exlurker 9y ago
  It was originally conceived as a multi-purpose synth chip. Bob Yannes, designer: "When I designed the SID chip, I was attempting to create a single-chip synthesizer voice, which hopefully would find it's way into polyphonic/polytimbral synthesizers. I never realized this however." http://sid.kubarth.com/articles/interview_bob_yannes.html http://sid.kubarth.com/articles/interview_bob_yannes.html
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Thanks both. I was relying mostly on the existence of the SIDStation some years back.
boomlinde 9y ago
AFAIK, you can't buy new 6502s any more (nor can you buy the 6510 actually used in the C64). You can buy 65c02 chips, but those are slightly incompatible with the 6502 and 6510 on the opcode level.
- jhbadger 9y ago
  Not really significantly though. The Apple //c (and some ][es) had 65c02s rather than the 6502 in the ][ and ][+, but they could still run all the old software.
  - boomlinde 9y ago
    There are undocumented opcodes that still perform useful operations on the NMOS 6502, for example loading the A and X registers simultaneously, decrementing and comparing memory, along with a variety of more exotic instructions that can replace quite long sequences of equivalent "valid" opcodes. These are NOPs on the 65c02. I know little about the Apple 2 series, but in quite some C64 software, these operations are used wherever they can save a few cycles. Mostly demos.

IntelMiner 9y ago

Likely cost Unless you're aiming for accuracy, it's a lot cheaper to simply put a cheap little SoC on board, cover it in epoxy and ship it

reaperducer 9y ago

No need to build new ones when there are so many old ones available. The Goodwill online auction always has two or three of them for around $30. http://www.shopgoodwill.com http://www.shopgoodwill.com (Note that Goodwill recently updated its web site and apparently kicked many of the regional organizations out, so supply has been lower lately. Hopefully when the regionals get up to speed the supply will increase again.)

biggieshellz 9y ago
They were definitely built to a price, though, and they have a lot of reliability issues now: * The (epoxy-potted, non-serviceable) power supply fails (and the resulting voltage increase takes out the 4164 DRAM chips). * The PLA is not heatsinked, runs hot, and fails. * The MOS replacements for standard 74xx logic chips are notoriously unreliable. You're better off finding a used one that's been tested with a TV -- "powers on" is not enough. In addition, the Goodwill ones (at least in the USA) are NTSC, whereas a lot of the later European games were PAL-only. If you want to play those games, you end up having to find a cracked, NTSC-fixed version of them.

ashark 9y ago

Modern, real-hardware NES: https://www.analogue.co/pages/nt-mini https://www.analogue.co/pages/nt-mini FPGA NES: http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=78 http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_i...

ashark 9y ago
Too late for me to edit, but the Analogue-NT Mini is also FPGA. I got that wrong. Pretty sure the original NT was fully hardware, not FPGA, but I don't think it's available anymore. Main difference between the two linked products, then, aside from appearance and maybe build quality (can't say which is better, don't own either), is output options, as best I can tell (the NT has a lot of AV out options). And price, obviously. [EDIT] The reason video out options are important, aside from aesthetics, is that some peripherals require a CRT. Notably the Zapper.
ant6n 9y ago
Ouch, 450$.

gerdesj 9y ago

Maybe not quite what you had in mind but: https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/index.php/c64p https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/index.php/c64p How can you put the original hardware into a case that is half the size? There is no way that the bits inside the case of my recently revived C64 would ever fit into this thing. Even if they cram a "real" SID and VIC etc into it then at least the motherboard and rather a lot of other things have to be rather different.

Jaruzel 9y ago

You can buy a NEW C64 motherboard: https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/c64-reloaded-mk2.html https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/produkt-details/product/c64-r... All you need is the chips from a dead old one.