5 ms·

Indeed - the number of educated people who believe there was a 'car tax' that paid for the road was outstanding. Until recently nearly all taxation went into a

by ljf 9y ago

Indeed - the number of educated people who believe there was a 'car tax' that paid for the road was outstanding. Until recently nearly all taxation went into a central pot and was allocated from there. Sadly this is now changing which I think will further drive the sense of 'ownership of the road' that many drivers have.

taeric 9y ago
It boggles my mind how places have set up toll roads, and then somehow negotiate the tolls to a third party. Just, why!? (Alternatively, someone please educate me on how what I think I "know" there is false. Thanks! :) )
- senectus1 9y ago
  the idea is that an enterprising private company can manage costs and deliver services at a lower cost than a Gov run one. Not really sure i 100% agree, but I suspect that oversite would be better with a Gov run Toll
  - taeric 9y ago
    That idea sounds fine, absent all of the evidence I've heard of where the vast majority of the toll money is going outside of the city where the toll road is. I suppose taxes aren't much different, in that most go somewhere else. But, at least with taxes you can see a money stream back to the city and argue it up. With it going to a private company, you are sorta screwed.
  - u801e 9y ago
    Except for the fact that the cost of collecting tolls exceeds the cost of collecting a tax on fuel [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13817279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13817279
    - Steltek 9y ago
      Tolls achive more than just crudely approximating a car's impact to the road system. Tolls can influence traffic behavior and congestion; which I'd guess is the point of that LA article. Also, I'm curious how those costs look when you have open road tolling, as recently implemented in Massachusetts. No toll takers, just cameras, computers, and a call center "somewhere".
      - u801e 9y ago
        There's also the cost of setting up and maintaining system that doesn't apply to fuel tax collection (since it's already in place).
      - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
        > Tolls can influence traffic behavior and congestion That's more like "give poor people a reason not to drive on certain roads/lanes" if you take the glass half empty view of things.
- convolvatron 9y ago
  at least here in the US we have a fetish for older guys in business casual with a little bit of a beer gut that knock off early to put in a quick 9. as long as one of those guys is taking a cut, we're happy. thats the way it seems
- gnopgnip 9y ago
  Privatized vs government run. In some situations a privatized provider can be more effective than a government run one. If the private company has the call center in Tennessee, their accountants, lawyers and headquarters in Phoenix, they can be cheaper than a government run organization that has all employees living in a high cost area in CA. There are also economies of scale for a private company to manage these services for many different areas. S a city getting half of the toll revenue from a private company can get more money than collecting all of it themselves and hiring people.
- analog31 9y ago
  Some folks, if inclined towards skepticism, think that it's a form of give-away: Hand it to a private business, and bail it out when it fails. Some of these things work, and some fail. A couple of interesting privatization episodes to consider: * Public education --> Charter schools * Public and nonprofit colleges --> For-profit education industry
justinator 9y ago
As someone who doesn't own a car, and rides a bike for everything, I get this argument on why I shouldn't be on the roads quite often. I just want to leave this article, here: https://momentummag.com/free-rider-myth/ https://momentummag.com/free-rider-myth/ for those who believe that a gas tax is used to pay for roadways, and since cyclists do not pay a gas tax, they have no business riding the roads. As the article points out, driving on roads is heavily subsidized. WE ALL pay for the privilege of driving a car on public roads.
- tomsthumb 9y ago
  Let's also not forget that road wear's relationship with weight is greater than linear, which is to say that doubling the weight will more than double the wear. Your average cyclist is going to be 10x smaller than a normal 4 door car.
  - ufo 9y ago
    IIRC, it goes with the 4th power of the axle weight, which is much more than just nonlinear
- Johnny555 9y ago
  The thing that gets me (as a cyclist) is that I commute almost entirely on local roads that are largely paid with my property taxes. Yet the people that seem to complain most about bikes on the road are commuting from 2 counties away and very little of their tax money goes to paying the roads that I'm commuting on. And they act as if that me riding in that tiny 3 foot wide painted strip on the road is caused them to have an hour long commute in stop and go traffic from 30+ miles away.
  - rconti 9y ago
    roars by cyclist after 2 seconds' wait, races up to traffic ahead, slams on brakes, gets passed by cyclist at the stop sign 30 seconds later
  - justinator 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by ljf 9y ago

taeric 9y ago

It boggles my mind how places have set up toll roads, and then somehow negotiate the tolls to a third party. Just, why!? (Alternatively, someone please educate me on how what I think I "know" there is false. Thanks! :) )

senectus1 9y ago
the idea is that an enterprising private company can manage costs and deliver services at a lower cost than a Gov run one. Not really sure i 100% agree, but I suspect that oversite would be better with a Gov run Toll
- taeric 9y ago
  That idea sounds fine, absent all of the evidence I've heard of where the vast majority of the toll money is going outside of the city where the toll road is. I suppose taxes aren't much different, in that most go somewhere else. But, at least with taxes you can see a money stream back to the city and argue it up. With it going to a private company, you are sorta screwed.
- u801e 9y ago
  Except for the fact that the cost of collecting tolls exceeds the cost of collecting a tax on fuel [1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13817279 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13817279
  - Steltek 9y ago
    Tolls achive more than just crudely approximating a car's impact to the road system. Tolls can influence traffic behavior and congestion; which I'd guess is the point of that LA article. Also, I'm curious how those costs look when you have open road tolling, as recently implemented in Massachusetts. No toll takers, just cameras, computers, and a call center "somewhere".
    - u801e 9y ago
      There's also the cost of setting up and maintaining system that doesn't apply to fuel tax collection (since it's already in place).
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      > Tolls can influence traffic behavior and congestion That's more like "give poor people a reason not to drive on certain roads/lanes" if you take the glass half empty view of things.
convolvatron 9y ago
at least here in the US we have a fetish for older guys in business casual with a little bit of a beer gut that knock off early to put in a quick 9. as long as one of those guys is taking a cut, we're happy. thats the way it seems
gnopgnip 9y ago
Privatized vs government run. In some situations a privatized provider can be more effective than a government run one. If the private company has the call center in Tennessee, their accountants, lawyers and headquarters in Phoenix, they can be cheaper than a government run organization that has all employees living in a high cost area in CA. There are also economies of scale for a private company to manage these services for many different areas. S a city getting half of the toll revenue from a private company can get more money than collecting all of it themselves and hiring people.
analog31 9y ago
Some folks, if inclined towards skepticism, think that it's a form of give-away: Hand it to a private business, and bail it out when it fails. Some of these things work, and some fail. A couple of interesting privatization episodes to consider: * Public education --> Charter schools * Public and nonprofit colleges --> For-profit education industry

justinator 9y ago

As someone who doesn't own a car, and rides a bike for everything, I get this argument on why I shouldn't be on the roads quite often. I just want to leave this article, here: https://momentummag.com/free-rider-myth/ https://momentummag.com/free-rider-myth/ for those who believe that a gas tax is used to pay for roadways, and since cyclists do not pay a gas tax, they have no business riding the roads. As the article points out, driving on roads is heavily subsidized. WE ALL pay for the privilege of driving a car on public roads.

tomsthumb 9y ago
Let's also not forget that road wear's relationship with weight is greater than linear, which is to say that doubling the weight will more than double the wear. Your average cyclist is going to be 10x smaller than a normal 4 door car.
- ufo 9y ago
  IIRC, it goes with the 4th power of the axle weight, which is much more than just nonlinear
Johnny555 9y ago
The thing that gets me (as a cyclist) is that I commute almost entirely on local roads that are largely paid with my property taxes. Yet the people that seem to complain most about bikes on the road are commuting from 2 counties away and very little of their tax money goes to paying the roads that I'm commuting on. And they act as if that me riding in that tiny 3 foot wide painted strip on the road is caused them to have an hour long commute in stop and go traffic from 30+ miles away.
- rconti 9y ago
  roars by cyclist after 2 seconds' wait, races up to traffic ahead, slams on brakes, gets passed by cyclist at the stop sign 30 seconds later
- justinator 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]