7 ms·

Let me take a guess. Comparatively low immigration rate. Hardly accept any refugees (28 individuals accepted by Japan in 2016). Be able to support yourself or b

by jchb 9y ago

Let me take a guess. Comparatively low immigration rate. Hardly accept any refugees (28 individuals accepted by Japan in 2016). Be able to support yourself or be (quite literally) kicked out. High barriers to citizenship.

fifnir 9y ago
you are joking right?
- jchb 9y ago
  I am not. But two things. First, in response to the parent, I am pointing out something that Japan, Korea and China has in common. I am not asserting that "I am 100% sure that immigration is bad for the national average IQ". Second, of course individuals in an immigrant population are very successful and to great benefit to societies that receive them. And if you do not accept refugees, of course you miss out on some Einsteins. That's not what we are discussing here.
0xFFC 9y ago
Are you serious? Let me ask you how many of immigrants are grad students or prople with high tech jobs? Is it one of the stupidest thing to say drop in IQ is connected to immigrants! It is greatly disappointing to see this kind of nonsense in HN which is kind of home for many hackers and programmers. Hearing these kind of stupid ideas in C-Span? Who cares? But HN, that shows how low our societies has become.
- swsieber 9y ago
  What percentage of immigrants are grad students or people with high tech jobs. I don't know, and I'm genuinely curious.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jchb 9y ago
    There are statistics on education level. For example "Share of the population aged 25-64, by educational attainment level, by place of birth and by sex, EU-28, 2016". http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Share_of_the_population_aged_25-64,_by_educational_attainment_level,_by_place_of_birth_and_by_sex,_EU-28,_2016_(%25)_MI17.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.... Now let's say that you make it difficult (either deliberately or due to language barriers) for individuals in the left-most part of that graph to stay. What happens long term? I don't know.
- hegojuko 9y ago
  The millions of economic and war displaced immigrants flooding into Europe are largely and emphatically not grad student with high tech jobs. That's just reality.
- lol2143651 9y ago
  What portion of grad students and high tech jobs are Mexican immigrants? Very few. Conflating immigration from high IQ populations like China, Korea, and Brahmin India with South American immigration is just ridiculous.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Let me ask you how many of immigrants are grad students or people with high tech jobs? Depends on the country of entry and the country of origin. The majority of latin America immigrants in the US, or African immigrants in France for example will be nothing like "grad students" and "high tech jobs". >Is it one of the stupidest thing to say drop in IQ is connected to immigrants! It's actually a pretty decent explanation. If different countries have different average IQs (which we know to be correct) and if the mass immigration is not of the "grad student" type (which we also know to be correct), then it's a good explanation, assuming there's no other factor that we neglected to examine. Remains to be seen if this is indeed the case or if there's another cause (or perhaps multiple causes). >It is greatly disappointing to see this kind of nonsense in HN which is kind of home for many hackers and programmers. Hearing these kind of stupid ideas in C-Span? Who cares? But HN, that shows how low our societies has become. You are ranting. This is not a reasoned argument against the parent's argument. This is what's anti-hacker and anti-science.
  - 0xFFC 9y ago
    >This is not a reasoned argument against the parent's argument. FYI the parent comment was not reasoned argument either. The notion of relation between education and IQ is questionable. >It's actually a pretty decent explanation. No it is not at all. Since it requires rigorous calculation and estimation of how much immigrants have come, what is their average IQ, how much drop we see in population and so many questions. This is what “pointing finger without any evidence” looks like. I don’t understand why you would consider your approach scientific when I am the one basically asking and questioning all the moving parts.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >FYI the parent comment was not reasoned argument either. The notion of relation between education and IQ is questionable. Questionable based on ethical considerations is not the same as non-rational. It's a very logical thing to consider. A mechanism for example would be that people with higher IQ also tend to succeed in completing more higher education degrees. The inverse is also possible, and it's also a perfectly valid thing to suggest and study. In fact it's studied e.g. in this paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/2/425.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/109/2/425.full.pdf >No it is not at all. Since it requires rigorous calculation and estimation of how much immigrants have come, what is their average IQ, how much drop we see in population and so many questions. That's what's required to get a full result. It's not however required for merely putting forward the argument as a possible explanation, or for judging whether the argument is rational or not. It seems that your concerns are more tied to a priori axioms and emotional resistance than actual methodological issues in the questions.
- LARGEGALAXY 9y ago
  It is a very sound hypothesis. Take a look at this: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country If we are speaking of the U.S.A (and Germany, Sweden, France) then most immigrants are people coming from locations far from the top of the list; therefore, if these immigrants (their kids too, IQ is a heritable trait) are partaking in such tests, the average will decrease, do you not believe so yourself? Perhaps you can pinpoint the flaw in this hypothesis.
swsieber 9y ago
That would make sense - immigrants usually aren't native speakers. Given that most IQ tests have portions that rely on linguistic ability... So it's not that their IQ is lower - it's that they test lower. I am curious as to the distribution of jobs amongst immigrants.
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  Have seen any scientific IQ test other than fakes ones on internet? The portions are well discrete. IQ test has nothing to do with linguistics ability (at least we don’t know it) and most of IQ test don’t require you to read or write anything.
  - dpark 9y ago
    > Have seen any scientific IQ test other than fakes ones on internet? ... IQ test has nothing to do with linguistics ability ... The most widely used IQ test has explicit verbal testing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_...
    - 0xFFC 9y ago
      Why you think you should answer when you don’t have answer? Verbal testing is different than spatial ability testing? Do you see the logic? Verbal testing is separate skills. And spatial skills are different too. >The most Completely false.
      - dpark 9y ago
        > Why you think you should answer when you don’t have answer? > Verbal testing is different than spatial ability testing? Do you see the logic? Verbal testing is separate skills. And spatial skills are different too. Because I do have the answer. The article asserts that average IQ is falling. It does not indicate that only, e.g., spacial ability is falling. Given that verbal is a direct component in its own right (as well as a factor in other areas due to comprehension and communication), it is reasonable to state that verbal is likely a factor in the falling average IQ. > Completely false. It's not completely false. WAIS is extremely widely used. It's not simply the most frequently used IQ test[1]. It's one of the most frequently used clinical assessments in general. You're just asserting things you want to be true. If you disagree that WAIS is the most common clinical IQ test, then provide some info on what you believe is more common. Otherwise your claims are clearly without merit. [1] http://www.pearsonclinical.com/psychology/news/2008/wechsler-adult-intelligence-scale-fourth-edition-now-available-from-pearson.html http://www.pearsonclinical.com/psychology/news/2008/wechsler...

by jchb 9y ago

fifnir 9y ago

you are joking right?

jchb 9y ago
I am not. But two things. First, in response to the parent, I am pointing out something that Japan, Korea and China has in common. I am not asserting that "I am 100% sure that immigration is bad for the national average IQ". Second, of course individuals in an immigrant population are very successful and to great benefit to societies that receive them. And if you do not accept refugees, of course you miss out on some Einsteins. That's not what we are discussing here.

0xFFC 9y ago

Are you serious? Let me ask you how many of immigrants are grad students or prople with high tech jobs? Is it one of the stupidest thing to say drop in IQ is connected to immigrants! It is greatly disappointing to see this kind of nonsense in HN which is kind of home for many hackers and programmers. Hearing these kind of stupid ideas in C-Span? Who cares? But HN, that shows how low our societies has become.

swsieber 9y ago
What percentage of immigrants are grad students or people with high tech jobs. I don't know, and I'm genuinely curious.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jchb 9y ago
  There are statistics on education level. For example "Share of the population aged 25-64, by educational attainment level, by place of birth and by sex, EU-28, 2016". http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Share_of_the_population_aged_25-64,_by_educational_attainment_level,_by_place_of_birth_and_by_sex,_EU-28,_2016_(%25)_MI17.png http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/.... Now let's say that you make it difficult (either deliberately or due to language barriers) for individuals in the left-most part of that graph to stay. What happens long term? I don't know.
hegojuko 9y ago
The millions of economic and war displaced immigrants flooding into Europe are largely and emphatically not grad student with high tech jobs. That's just reality.
lol2143651 9y ago
What portion of grad students and high tech jobs are Mexican immigrants? Very few. Conflating immigration from high IQ populations like China, Korea, and Brahmin India with South American immigration is just ridiculous.
coldtea 9y ago
>Let me ask you how many of immigrants are grad students or people with high tech jobs? Depends on the country of entry and the country of origin. The majority of latin America immigrants in the US, or African immigrants in France for example will be nothing like "grad students" and "high tech jobs". >Is it one of the stupidest thing to say drop in IQ is connected to immigrants! It's actually a pretty decent explanation. If different countries have different average IQs (which we know to be correct) and if the mass immigration is not of the "grad student" type (which we also know to be correct), then it's a good explanation, assuming there's no other factor that we neglected to examine. Remains to be seen if this is indeed the case or if there's another cause (or perhaps multiple causes). >It is greatly disappointing to see this kind of nonsense in HN which is kind of home for many hackers and programmers. Hearing these kind of stupid ideas in C-Span? Who cares? But HN, that shows how low our societies has become. You are ranting. This is not a reasoned argument against the parent's argument. This is what's anti-hacker and anti-science.
- 0xFFC 9y ago
  >This is not a reasoned argument against the parent's argument. FYI the parent comment was not reasoned argument either. The notion of relation between education and IQ is questionable. >It's actually a pretty decent explanation. No it is not at all. Since it requires rigorous calculation and estimation of how much immigrants have come, what is their average IQ, how much drop we see in population and so many questions. This is what “pointing finger without any evidence” looks like. I don’t understand why you would consider your approach scientific when I am the one basically asking and questioning all the moving parts.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >FYI the parent comment was not reasoned argument either. The notion of relation between education and IQ is questionable. Questionable based on ethical considerations is not the same as non-rational. It's a very logical thing to consider. A mechanism for example would be that people with higher IQ also tend to succeed in completing more higher education degrees. The inverse is also possible, and it's also a perfectly valid thing to suggest and study. In fact it's studied e.g. in this paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/2/425.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/109/2/425.full.pdf >No it is not at all. Since it requires rigorous calculation and estimation of how much immigrants have come, what is their average IQ, how much drop we see in population and so many questions. That's what's required to get a full result. It's not however required for merely putting forward the argument as a possible explanation, or for judging whether the argument is rational or not. It seems that your concerns are more tied to a priori axioms and emotional resistance than actual methodological issues in the questions.
LARGEGALAXY 9y ago
It is a very sound hypothesis. Take a look at this: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country If we are speaking of the U.S.A (and Germany, Sweden, France) then most immigrants are people coming from locations far from the top of the list; therefore, if these immigrants (their kids too, IQ is a heritable trait) are partaking in such tests, the average will decrease, do you not believe so yourself? Perhaps you can pinpoint the flaw in this hypothesis.

swsieber 9y ago

That would make sense - immigrants usually aren't native speakers. Given that most IQ tests have portions that rely on linguistic ability... So it's not that their IQ is lower - it's that they test lower. I am curious as to the distribution of jobs amongst immigrants.

0xFFC 9y ago
Have seen any scientific IQ test other than fakes ones on internet? The portions are well discrete. IQ test has nothing to do with linguistics ability (at least we don’t know it) and most of IQ test don’t require you to read or write anything.
- dpark 9y ago
  > Have seen any scientific IQ test other than fakes ones on internet? ... IQ test has nothing to do with linguistics ability ... The most widely used IQ test has explicit verbal testing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_Scale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wechsler_Adult_Intelligence_...
  - 0xFFC 9y ago
    Why you think you should answer when you don’t have answer? Verbal testing is different than spatial ability testing? Do you see the logic? Verbal testing is separate skills. And spatial skills are different too. >The most Completely false.
    - dpark 9y ago
      > Why you think you should answer when you don’t have answer? > Verbal testing is different than spatial ability testing? Do you see the logic? Verbal testing is separate skills. And spatial skills are different too. Because I do have the answer. The article asserts that average IQ is falling. It does not indicate that only, e.g., spacial ability is falling. Given that verbal is a direct component in its own right (as well as a factor in other areas due to comprehension and communication), it is reasonable to state that verbal is likely a factor in the falling average IQ. > Completely false. It's not completely false. WAIS is extremely widely used. It's not simply the most frequently used IQ test[1]. It's one of the most frequently used clinical assessments in general. You're just asserting things you want to be true. If you disagree that WAIS is the most common clinical IQ test, then provide some info on what you believe is more common. Otherwise your claims are clearly without merit. [1] http://www.pearsonclinical.com/psychology/news/2008/wechsler-adult-intelligence-scale-fourth-edition-now-available-from-pearson.html http://www.pearsonclinical.com/psychology/news/2008/wechsler...