7 ms·

Change of scope and target market for i386

71 points by campuscodi 9y ago

DeepYogurt 9y ago
Glad to see 32bit intel being dropped.
- mtgx 9y ago
  I hadn't considered this, but I wonder if in a few years AMD will have more leverage against Intel because everyone uses AMD64?
aldeluis 9y ago
I use 32bit server images in VPS because the RAM usage is significantly lower. This is critical in VPS units with 512MB of RAM... I'm worried.
- DeepYogurt 9y ago
  Try a different distro?
  - amongwhales 9y ago
    That's what I was thinking. Arch switched to all x86_64 a few months ago (announced the phase-out) but, Arch would probably be just as lightweight. I'm not sure what DE it comes with
    - gh02t 9y ago
      > I'm not sure what DE it comes with None, the default install of Arch leaves you with a terminal prompt and basic utilities. You can install whatever you like from there. It's closer to something like the Debian minimal install than Ubuntu desktop.
      - amongwhales 9y ago
        I meant what does Ubuntu Server come with. Is it Unity too?
        gh02t 9y ago
        It doesn't come with one either, it's for servers. You can install the ubuntu-desktop package (which is basically what you get off of the desktop install disk) afterwards, though. Not really clear if that will still be option on i386, that is do a net install and then install ubuntu-desktop. It sounds to me like they are just retiring the installer images for i386 and not the desktop related packages, so if you really need it then you can go this route. I bet it won't be well tested/supported though. On a related note, Unity is getting the axe and 17.10 will ship GNOME as the default DE.
  - sever5 9y ago
    Debian is the go to, they maintain niche architectures and ports almost to a fault.
- Iv 9y ago
  The proposal explicitly calls to keep i386 as a target for containers.
- izacus 9y ago
  hmm, doesn't Linux have a mode where it keeps 32bit pointers even on x86_64? I remember reading about it.
  - ant6n 9y ago
    x32 ABI. Although I've never heard of a Linux that's x32 only. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
    - giancarlostoro 9y ago
      According to another comment made recently Debian has such a flavor: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15366955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15366955
      - ant6n 9y ago
        Neat! It seems the main drawback is that you only have 4GB of virtual memory. I wonder whether it would be possible to create some sort of hybrid that allows access to more memory. (himem? long-pointers? separating data/code/stack into different regions?)
      - kasabali 9y ago
        last time I checked it was nothing more then a PoC. Firefox was missing.
- slacka 9y ago
  Same, I also get by with 512MB. If i686 support is dropped, I'd need to move up to 1GB, which comes with a considerable cost increase.
- jcelerier 9y ago
  > I use 32bit server images in VPS because the RAM usage is significantly lower. This is critical in VPS units with 512MB of RAM... I'm worried. You could use Debian x32 instead. 32 bit pointers but amd64 instruction set: https://wiki.debian.org/X32Port https://wiki.debian.org/X32Port
- kobeya 9y ago
  Use the netinst image, which is still being maintained.
- oliwarner 9y ago
  You have 32bit support on 16.04 through 2021. If by that point you can't just throw another 512 of RAM at the problem, I'd be worried. 1GB is already starting to become the lowest rung for VPS providers. That's the $5 plan at Linode, anyway. I fully expect that to be universal (or greater) in four years time. And that's not to mention that while a little wider, 64bit is also faster. This could be a saving factor under load.
phippsbrad 9y ago
I have Intel Atom netbooks that currently run Ubuntu wonderfully. But they are low RAM and the 32bit version runs better than the 64bit (if they can even run 64bit). I am worried I will have to drop Ubuntu and switch to plain Debian because of this.
- cup-of-tea 9y ago
  Same. It's funny actually, last time I installed something on there I just assumed it was x86_64 and was thoroughly confused for a good few moments when the USB stick would not boot. But yeah, I, for one, still run Linux on i386 hardware. My netbook isn't obsolete. In fact, I don't think I can buy anything like it any more.
  - maccard 9y ago
    > My netbook isn't obsolete. In fact, I don't think I can buy anything like it any more. That's pretty much the definition of obsolete
    - foobarbecue 9y ago
      Antique ≠ obsolete
      - qplex 9y ago
        Funny that for other stuff it usually takes 100 years to be considered antique.
    - cup-of-tea 9y ago
      Wow... well you're completely sold on the whole planned obsolescence thing, aren't you? I suggest looking up obsolete in the dictionary.
      - rhencke 9y ago
        I looked up obsolete in the Oxford English dictionary: No longer produced or used; out of date. So, I think, by that definition, his point stands: it truly is the very definition of obsolete, as it is no longer produced.
yuhong 9y ago
The fun thing is that I think Ubuntu has not been bothering with non-PAE kernels for years now I think.
rwmj 9y ago
Fedora nearly dropped i686 earlier this year, and might do so soon. More specifically there was a proposal to stop building i686 kernels[1] which didn't go through but it did start a lot of discussion on the mailing list. Eventually it was decided to set up an x86 SIG for anyone interested in maintaining it[2][3]. It's yet to be seen how the SIG will work out. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Kernels https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Ke... [2] https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1737 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1737 [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/x86 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/x86
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  This is really only tangentially-related, but on the subject of removing architecture support, can I point out how annoying it is that Eclipse 4 does not target ARM architectures? Look at this: http://archive.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops4/R-4.6-201606061100/ http://archive.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops4/R-4.6-20... Linux (x86/GTK+) Linux (x86_64/GTK+) Linux (PPC/GTK+) Linux (PPC64/GTK+) Linux (s390x/GTK+) Linux (s390/GTK+) Linux (PPC64LE/GTK+) And yet no ARM...I'll bet more people use that than s390.
  - rwmj 9y ago
    Is Eclipse still written in Java? I wonder why architecture support has to be added at all.
    - rhencke 9y ago
      There very may well be other reasons, but a large one is that Eclipse is written using SWT, not AWT/Swing. SWT is Java, and has a platform-independent API, but has platform-specific implementations. (SWT JARs are unique per OS/architecture)
    - leggomylibro 9y ago
      I actually tried to build it from source. Oh, god. What a monstrosity of a build system. And the documentation (or lack thereof)...here there be tygers.
Animats 9y ago
Discontinue to provide for i386 * Server classic img/iso * Desktop live Oh, they just mean 32-bit x86. I thought for a moment this was Ubuntu killing Linux on the desktop.
- dpcx 9y ago
  x86_64 is still available... I don't know the last time I personally used an i386 image from anything.
jwilk 9y ago
Do people actually use x86 for IoT?
jmkni 9y ago
32 bit is handy in development because you can run more than one. On most processors you can only run one 64 bit VM, but as many 32 bit VMs as you can handle.
- chansecodina 9y ago
  Now I'm curious: Which hypervisor has that limitation?
  - jmkni 9y ago
    It's more that any consumer grade processor seems to have this limitation. I have an i7-6700HQ for example, and I can either have Hyper-V turned on (I'm on Windows) in which case I can only run 32-bit VM's with VirtualBox, or I can turn off Hyper-V in which case I can run one 64-bit VM on VirtualBox, and then only 32-bit VM's past that. If I'm doing Android development, I can't run a 64-bit VM at the same time as the Android emulator is 64-bit. Sometimes I want to run my web server, an Android VM, and maybe a Redis server on Ubuntu in a VM. I can't emulate Android and run a 64-bit VM, so the 32-bit Ubuntu distro is invaluable here.
acoye 9y ago
The end of x86 32bit is near … And here I am trying to find an up to date distro for my G5s :D Tl;dr opensource or not, market share dictates supported archs. The only difference been, you can try to build from the sources for your vintage hardware.
davidgerard 9y ago
I got an SSD on Friday and accidentally downloaded the 32-bit desktop ISO for 16.04 ... even with PAE on 8GB RAM with 8GB swap, it turns out 32-bit Firefox crashes when its virtual memory footprint gets too big ... So yeah. 32-bit is now a specialist thing. Or you could use Debian. 16.04 is supported until 2021, so ...

71 points by campuscodi 9y ago

DeepYogurt 9y ago

Glad to see 32bit intel being dropped.

mtgx 9y ago
I hadn't considered this, but I wonder if in a few years AMD will have more leverage against Intel because everyone uses AMD64?

aldeluis 9y ago

I use 32bit server images in VPS because the RAM usage is significantly lower. This is critical in VPS units with 512MB of RAM... I'm worried.

DeepYogurt 9y ago
Try a different distro?
- amongwhales 9y ago
  That's what I was thinking. Arch switched to all x86_64 a few months ago (announced the phase-out) but, Arch would probably be just as lightweight. I'm not sure what DE it comes with
  - gh02t 9y ago
    > I'm not sure what DE it comes with None, the default install of Arch leaves you with a terminal prompt and basic utilities. You can install whatever you like from there. It's closer to something like the Debian minimal install than Ubuntu desktop.
    - amongwhales 9y ago
      I meant what does Ubuntu Server come with. Is it Unity too?
      - gh02t 9y ago
        It doesn't come with one either, it's for servers. You can install the ubuntu-desktop package (which is basically what you get off of the desktop install disk) afterwards, though. Not really clear if that will still be option on i386, that is do a net install and then install ubuntu-desktop. It sounds to me like they are just retiring the installer images for i386 and not the desktop related packages, so if you really need it then you can go this route. I bet it won't be well tested/supported though. On a related note, Unity is getting the axe and 17.10 will ship GNOME as the default DE.
- sever5 9y ago
  Debian is the go to, they maintain niche architectures and ports almost to a fault.
Iv 9y ago
The proposal explicitly calls to keep i386 as a target for containers.
izacus 9y ago
hmm, doesn't Linux have a mode where it keeps 32bit pointers even on x86_64? I remember reading about it.
- ant6n 9y ago
  x32 ABI. Although I've never heard of a Linux that's x32 only. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI
  - giancarlostoro 9y ago
    According to another comment made recently Debian has such a flavor: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15366955 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15366955
    - ant6n 9y ago
      Neat! It seems the main drawback is that you only have 4GB of virtual memory. I wonder whether it would be possible to create some sort of hybrid that allows access to more memory. (himem? long-pointers? separating data/code/stack into different regions?)
    - kasabali 9y ago
      last time I checked it was nothing more then a PoC. Firefox was missing.
slacka 9y ago
Same, I also get by with 512MB. If i686 support is dropped, I'd need to move up to 1GB, which comes with a considerable cost increase.
jcelerier 9y ago
> I use 32bit server images in VPS because the RAM usage is significantly lower. This is critical in VPS units with 512MB of RAM... I'm worried. You could use Debian x32 instead. 32 bit pointers but amd64 instruction set: https://wiki.debian.org/X32Port https://wiki.debian.org/X32Port
kobeya 9y ago
Use the netinst image, which is still being maintained.
oliwarner 9y ago
You have 32bit support on 16.04 through 2021. If by that point you can't just throw another 512 of RAM at the problem, I'd be worried. 1GB is already starting to become the lowest rung for VPS providers. That's the $5 plan at Linode, anyway. I fully expect that to be universal (or greater) in four years time. And that's not to mention that while a little wider, 64bit is also faster. This could be a saving factor under load.

phippsbrad 9y ago

I have Intel Atom netbooks that currently run Ubuntu wonderfully. But they are low RAM and the 32bit version runs better than the 64bit (if they can even run 64bit). I am worried I will have to drop Ubuntu and switch to plain Debian because of this.

cup-of-tea 9y ago
Same. It's funny actually, last time I installed something on there I just assumed it was x86_64 and was thoroughly confused for a good few moments when the USB stick would not boot. But yeah, I, for one, still run Linux on i386 hardware. My netbook isn't obsolete. In fact, I don't think I can buy anything like it any more.
- maccard 9y ago
  > My netbook isn't obsolete. In fact, I don't think I can buy anything like it any more. That's pretty much the definition of obsolete
  - foobarbecue 9y ago
    Antique ≠ obsolete
    - qplex 9y ago
      Funny that for other stuff it usually takes 100 years to be considered antique.
  - cup-of-tea 9y ago
    Wow... well you're completely sold on the whole planned obsolescence thing, aren't you? I suggest looking up obsolete in the dictionary.
    - rhencke 9y ago
      I looked up obsolete in the Oxford English dictionary: No longer produced or used; out of date. So, I think, by that definition, his point stands: it truly is the very definition of obsolete, as it is no longer produced.

yuhong 9y ago

The fun thing is that I think Ubuntu has not been bothering with non-PAE kernels for years now I think.

rwmj 9y ago

Fedora nearly dropped i686 earlier this year, and might do so soon. More specifically there was a proposal to stop building i686 kernels[1] which didn't go through but it did start a lot of discussion on the mailing list. Eventually it was decided to set up an x86 SIG for anyone interested in maintaining it[2][3]. It's yet to be seen how the SIG will work out. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Kernels https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Ke... [2] https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1737 https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/1737 [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/x86 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/x86

leggomylibro 9y ago
This is really only tangentially-related, but on the subject of removing architecture support, can I point out how annoying it is that Eclipse 4 does not target ARM architectures? Look at this: http://archive.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops4/R-4.6-201606061100/ http://archive.eclipse.org/eclipse/downloads/drops4/R-4.6-20... Linux (x86/GTK+) Linux (x86_64/GTK+) Linux (PPC/GTK+) Linux (PPC64/GTK+) Linux (s390x/GTK+) Linux (s390/GTK+) Linux (PPC64LE/GTK+) And yet no ARM...I'll bet more people use that than s390.
- rwmj 9y ago
  Is Eclipse still written in Java? I wonder why architecture support has to be added at all.
  - rhencke 9y ago
    There very may well be other reasons, but a large one is that Eclipse is written using SWT, not AWT/Swing. SWT is Java, and has a platform-independent API, but has platform-specific implementations. (SWT JARs are unique per OS/architecture)
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    I actually tried to build it from source. Oh, god. What a monstrosity of a build system. And the documentation (or lack thereof)...here there be tygers.

Animats 9y ago

Discontinue to provide for i386 * Server classic img/iso * Desktop live Oh, they just mean 32-bit x86. I thought for a moment this was Ubuntu killing Linux on the desktop.

dpcx 9y ago
x86_64 is still available... I don't know the last time I personally used an i386 image from anything.

jwilk 9y ago

Do people actually use x86 for IoT?

jmkni 9y ago

32 bit is handy in development because you can run more than one. On most processors you can only run one 64 bit VM, but as many 32 bit VMs as you can handle.

chansecodina 9y ago
Now I'm curious: Which hypervisor has that limitation?
- jmkni 9y ago
  It's more that any consumer grade processor seems to have this limitation. I have an i7-6700HQ for example, and I can either have Hyper-V turned on (I'm on Windows) in which case I can only run 32-bit VM's with VirtualBox, or I can turn off Hyper-V in which case I can run one 64-bit VM on VirtualBox, and then only 32-bit VM's past that. If I'm doing Android development, I can't run a 64-bit VM at the same time as the Android emulator is 64-bit. Sometimes I want to run my web server, an Android VM, and maybe a Redis server on Ubuntu in a VM. I can't emulate Android and run a 64-bit VM, so the 32-bit Ubuntu distro is invaluable here.

acoye 9y ago

The end of x86 32bit is near … And here I am trying to find an up to date distro for my G5s :D Tl;dr opensource or not, market share dictates supported archs. The only difference been, you can try to build from the sources for your vintage hardware.

davidgerard 9y ago

I got an SSD on Friday and accidentally downloaded the 32-bit desktop ISO for 16.04 ... even with PAE on 8GB RAM with 8GB swap, it turns out 32-bit Firefox crashes when its virtual memory footprint gets too big ... So yeah. 32-bit is now a specialist thing. Or you could use Debian. 16.04 is supported until 2021, so ...