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Ubuntu 17.10 Final Beta Is Ready For Testing

117 points by rayascott 9y ago

teekert 9y ago
For those attached to Unity, the (Ubuntu) Mate desktop now contains a panel layout called "Mutiny", it very much like Unity. Turn on Compiz for window management and you will almost feel like nothing has changed... Almost...
- piotrkubisa 9y ago
  I am curious, what is the unique selling point of Unity which makes people stick to it? Is it a global menu[1]? Dock? Support of legacy indicators? [1]: GNOME3 has command pallete (ctrl+p) known from Sublime Text - https://github.com/p-e-w/plotinus https://github.com/p-e-w/plotinus edit: Also https://github.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu https://github.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu
  - dm319 9y ago
    global menu, left side dock paradigm (integrated with top bar), the HUD. Personally, I don't use unity, but I find these features attractive.
    - type0 9y ago
      The HUD is on the latest Ubuntu MATE now and left side dock is one of the settings called Mutiny (inspired by Unity).
  - jsgo 9y ago
    For me, it is possibly the menu/dock aspect, but for whatever reason it grew on me. I personally don't like the (Windows here) "click start -> hover applications -> drill down" method. In the grand scheme of things, it is really just a taskbar in a vertical orientation, but I dunno, I just liked it after a while. I understand the motivation of getting rid of it (the dislike of it from a lot of the user base, the development needs being able to be applied elsewhere, etc.) so I'm not going crazy over it or anything. Will miss it though.
    - Too 9y ago
      It hasn't been necessary to drill down the applications in the start menu since windows 7. Just start, type search, enter. Then pin your frequent apps to the task bar.
      - jsgo 9y ago
        Not necessary, but I'd argue it was still the predominant method for 7 and even 8 (from what I've seen people use, anyway). I do find myself personally with 10 using search a lot more (haven't had to observe others, so no idea about others usage), but sometimes I've had to shift over to the Win10 equivalent of the start menu -> applications method if I can't remember the name of the application outright (this was a bigger problem for me prior to Curse becoming part of Twitch, admittedly. They had two different clients and one of them was a bit more vague in naming). I was more alluding to the gnome method which last I used it has a similar menu with the tiered folder structure. Maybe they have added search as well, but my memory of GNOME is too fuzzy so I had to go with the fresher (for me) Windows equivalent (granted, with Windows 10 the applications folder essentially hangs out to the left of the Windows 8 start screen-esque area so calling it Applications folder would be a misnomer on my part).
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    It just works™. Plain simple window manager with good defaults. Since 1995 I have tried every major window manager, nowadays I just use the default installations in any OS I use.
  - seiferteric 9y ago
    I think people initially didn't like it because it was canonical's attempt at "convergence" so that ubuntu could be used on PC/phone/tablet back when their plan was to run on those things. A lot of people hate the idea of a desktop OS that looks like a tablet OS. Anyway, I agree, over time I got used to it and don't really mind it now, certainly better than the old gnome 2 menu based desktop.
  - NuDinNou 9y ago
    When you have an application maximized, its title bar becomes one with the status bar ( the one with time, network, weather and other indicators)
  - yAnonymous 9y ago
    Unity is elegant and simple, yet offers all the functionality I need, has a minimal UI and keyboard shortcuts for everything. Gnome3 is a collection of UI blunders and they (over)spend their funding on political bullshit I don't support.
    - amirouche 9y ago
      reference?
- lower 9y ago
  I believe that the Ubuntu Gnome Shell will have an extension to give it a Unity-like look, see the series of blog posts here: https://didrocks.fr/ https://didrocks.fr/
  - jacek 9y ago
    No global menu though.
zachruss92 9y ago
This is exciting! Coincidentally I have been messing with 17.10 the past few days, and I think it'll solve my display issues with a 3 monitor setup (with one 4k in the middle). That means I can finally be done with SSHing into a linux VM from windows when I want to do development on my gaming PC :)
- hnarn 9y ago
  I understand that you can't demand the same things from a non-profit ecosystem like Linux like you can from Windows or MacOS, but that being said the lack of good support for multiple monitor setups is infuriating. I've tried to get a "Laptop HTPC" setup working several times and it always takes a bunch of ugly hacks to even make it usable -- and you can forget about doing any of it in any kind of GUI, most of the time that will even make things worse.
  - dis-sys 9y ago
    multiple monitor support? you mean like 6-8 monitors? or just 2-3? I have been using ubuntu for 2-3 monitors setup for 10 years, never had any real problem.
    - bryanlarsen 9y ago
      X11 has supported multiple monitors for 30 years
      - orf 9y ago
        Yes, it supports multiple monitors in limitless arbitrary positions. If you want a monitor to the right hand side, one mounted behind you and one above you then you can configure this. However if you want three monitors lined up side by side, this seems to be ridiculously hard to configure at least in Ubuntu. The monitor drag-drop interface in Ubuntu is the worst I have ever seen. We recently had three new hires and had to go through the traumatic experience of setting this up for each of them.
unicornporn 9y ago
Should one be able to upgrade to 17.10 stable when it's out (without too much trouble), or are you stuck in beta “ring” if you install this?
- jacek 9y ago
  It will upgrade to stable 17.10.
  - denisw 9y ago
    To expand on that, there is no “beta“ channel, just a channel per release. If you install 17.10 beta, you‘ll get 17.10 package updates until the day of release, at which point you have the set of package versions that are considered the „stable“ release. After that, the 17.10 channel gets post-release bug and security fixes only.
- pipu 9y ago
  My understanding is that there's an upgrade path just an do-release-upgrade away. I'm semi sure I've upgraded from beta to stable a few times.
symlinkk 9y ago
How’s the GNOME experience on Ubuntu?
- sjburt 9y ago
  I've been using the Ubuntu GNOME version for years and it has been pretty rock solid and I've had no complaints.
- iagooar 9y ago
  The biggest problem I have with GNOME is how boring it is... It's not a bad thing, don't get me wrong, but I wish it would be a bit more interesting, especially if I have to use it 10+ hours a day.
  - stevedonovan 9y ago
    Heh, you get to see your desktop? I've usually got so much up that I can't see it. I like boring XFCE for that reason.
  - teekert 9y ago
    That is a strange remark, what do mean specifically? Perhaps there is still something like X snow? Or can you have the desktops on a cube with reflections at the bottom and fish inside like in de beryl days?? Otherwise, roaming the KDE settings can be a fun excercise.
- jacek 9y ago
  IMO it is great. The Ubuntu dock is an improvement, also Ubuntu Gnome will support old style tray icons out of the box. Canonical is making Gnome more usable and attractive to an average user. They are fixing mistakes that Gnome developers are making. Of course that is subjective and controversial opinion, but it seems like Gnome developers are removing useful features and adding useless apps like gnome-recipes instead. Unfortunately, real fractional scaling did not make it to this release (you can test it though). I can't wait for 18.04 which will probably have fractional scaling and will be an LTS release.
  - 9y ago
dis-sys 9y ago
10+ years full time Ubuntu user here, I have to say that although I am happy for the fact that Unity is gone, it is too late as I have moved to xfce4. The decision to move to Unity was bad, users choose Linux desktop because they want something simple, something more under their control. The whole unity desktop experience together with that everything is searchable promise is just not the right selling point for that audience. Now many many years in xfce4, that is the exact desktop environment I want. no over engineering rubbish, no forced features, no fancy UI pretending to be cool/smart, just the essential stuff that actually work. If I am going to spend most of time in terminals + chrome, why forcing me to have a fat desktop environment? gnome seems to be fine, used it for many many years before the Unity joke/xfce4, but it is still too fat and it is too late.
- stubish 9y ago
  Unity was never there to stop you using xfce4, so I'm not sure why removing it is 'too late'. Xubuntu predated Unity by several years. The various desktop flavours are alternatives, not competing forks, even if the one you prefer isn't the default. One of the reasons Ubuntu succeeded is that it supported both Gnome and KDE, even if Gnome happened to be the default, and Xubuntu brought even more users.
clircle 9y ago
What is going to happen to my Ubuntu GNOME desktop when I upgrade? Is it going to stay vanilla or will I have the Ubuntu-ified version of GNOME available in GDM?
- kbumsik 9y ago
  I am wondering too. There is even no Ubuntu GNOME on the update list. Is it going to be discontinued?
  - pkaye 9y ago
    Yes Ubuntu GNOME will be discontinued as determined by the developers. They decided it was better time to contribute to making Gnome better in the Ubuntu distribution itself. There will an additional package you can install to enable standard GNOME configuration.
- JamesMcMinn 9y ago
  As I understand it, the version of Gnome they're shipping is vanilla Gnome with a few extensions enabled by default, all of which can be disabled using Gnome Tweak. There's no need for a separate session.
- jacek 9y ago
  You can install gnome-session package. In GDM you will be able to choose between "Ubuntu Session" (Ubuntified Gnome) and "Gnome Session" (vanilla).
- colago 9y ago
  I just upgraded from Ubuntu GNOME 17.04 via "sudo do-release-upgrade -d" and everything still looks like it did before. After a reboot, the login screen has the purple Ubuntu Unity look and then it switches to the Ubuntu GNOME look.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
pasta 9y ago
I'm using (x)ubuntu for over 10 years and every version there are strange problems that still exist today. For example now my volume control uses 5 steps at once instead of one. So every version I have to search the net for some command line command to fix things. I wont leave Linux anytime soon but I can imagine people get sick of this. Ubuntu is great, but maybe the priority should be flawless instead of yet another window manager/desktop environment.
- fulafel 9y ago
  Community maintained variants like xubuntu rely entirely on volunteers, so you can make a big difference if you can test things & report bugs during the prerelease versions.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  The underlying issue is CADT churn in the userland. Every few years or so some new "kid" comes onboard and decides they can rewrite some piece of code over a caffeine fueled weekend. This then effectively solves some surface problems but resets the clock on a whole lot of other issues...
  - msla 9y ago
    Yes, blame everything on the young. That isn't biased at all. And the fact young people are more likely to be People of Color due to demographic shifts isn't a factor at all, I'm sure.
    - dang 9y ago
      Would you please stop posting this kind of comment to Hacker News? It breaks the HN guidelines, specifically this one: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." Also this one: "Assume good faith." (<-- Edit: whoops, haven't added that one yet! It's coming.) Blatant nastiness is easier to do something about because it's so obvious. But when people degrade discussion by replying to the worst about each other, the frog boils more subtly. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mixmastamyk 9y ago
Yeah, Python 3.6 is the default 3.x! Been waiting for that for years.
- teekert 9y ago
  That is already the case on 16.04 afaik, perhaps even earlier.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    No, you’ve been able to install it along side 3.5 for a while, but not as python3. I’m on zesty now with 2.7, 3.5, and 3.6.
amirouche 9y ago
This might be a little off-topic, but anyone knows whether gentoo's USE flags will come to debian derivatives?
- thomasfortes 9y ago
  Probably not, gentoo compiles everything, building deb packages for every possible combination of flags would be almost impossible, and if you add the fact that you can change the flags for a single package then you will get something impossible to do. USE flags and equivalents are a thing that only comes with systems that compile most of the software instead of relying in binaries.
  - amirouche 9y ago
    I don't want debian to compile every combination of use flags. I just want to be able to opt-in to use softwares compiled and optimized by me.
- kasabali 9y ago
  DEB_BUILD _OPTIONS was already a thing. There is now also more formal build profiles feature. (https://wiki.debian.org/BuildProfileSpec https://wiki.debian.org/BuildProfileSpec) this is closest you'll get though, as Debian is not a source distribution and these features are not aimed at users
zeep 9y ago
I wish Gnome would adopt the Dolphin file manager...
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Or we could perhaps abandon the notion of DEs and let people assemble the tools they want to use for themselves...
  - unethical_ban 9y ago
    The number of people who want to do that, that are not doing so now, is approximately the population of Cheyenne, Wyoming. Apple is nearly a trillion dollar company. People want cloud backup, consistent and beautiful UI, and usable, "just works" tools. They're doing something correctly. Sincerely, Someone who owns a Windows PC, an Ubuntu laptop, a Fedora server, an Android personal phone, and an iPhone work phone.
    - digi_owl 9y ago
      Apple didn't sell much until they could halo ipod and iphone. And even then what really got ipod etc rolling was itunes and itms for Windows. Beyond that what sold OSX better was a unix cli in a off the shelf hardware package with a support contract. And frankly what people want can be so easily manipulated by marketing that is a real worry.

117 points by rayascott 9y ago

For those attached to Unity, the (Ubuntu) Mate desktop now contains a panel layout called "Mutiny", it very much like Unity. Turn on Compiz for window management and you will almost feel like nothing has changed... Almost...

piotrkubisa 9y ago
I am curious, what is the unique selling point of Unity which makes people stick to it? Is it a global menu[1]? Dock? Support of legacy indicators? [1]: GNOME3 has command pallete (ctrl+p) known from Sublime Text - https://github.com/p-e-w/plotinus https://github.com/p-e-w/plotinus edit: Also https://github.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu https://github.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu
- dm319 9y ago
  global menu, left side dock paradigm (integrated with top bar), the HUD. Personally, I don't use unity, but I find these features attractive.
  - type0 9y ago
    The HUD is on the latest Ubuntu MATE now and left side dock is one of the settings called Mutiny (inspired by Unity).
- jsgo 9y ago
  For me, it is possibly the menu/dock aspect, but for whatever reason it grew on me. I personally don't like the (Windows here) "click start -> hover applications -> drill down" method. In the grand scheme of things, it is really just a taskbar in a vertical orientation, but I dunno, I just liked it after a while. I understand the motivation of getting rid of it (the dislike of it from a lot of the user base, the development needs being able to be applied elsewhere, etc.) so I'm not going crazy over it or anything. Will miss it though.
  - Too 9y ago
    It hasn't been necessary to drill down the applications in the start menu since windows 7. Just start, type search, enter. Then pin your frequent apps to the task bar.
    - jsgo 9y ago
      Not necessary, but I'd argue it was still the predominant method for 7 and even 8 (from what I've seen people use, anyway). I do find myself personally with 10 using search a lot more (haven't had to observe others, so no idea about others usage), but sometimes I've had to shift over to the Win10 equivalent of the start menu -> applications method if I can't remember the name of the application outright (this was a bigger problem for me prior to Curse becoming part of Twitch, admittedly. They had two different clients and one of them was a bit more vague in naming). I was more alluding to the gnome method which last I used it has a similar menu with the tiered folder structure. Maybe they have added search as well, but my memory of GNOME is too fuzzy so I had to go with the fresher (for me) Windows equivalent (granted, with Windows 10 the applications folder essentially hangs out to the left of the Windows 8 start screen-esque area so calling it Applications folder would be a misnomer on my part).
- pjmlp 9y ago
  It just works™. Plain simple window manager with good defaults. Since 1995 I have tried every major window manager, nowadays I just use the default installations in any OS I use.
- seiferteric 9y ago
  I think people initially didn't like it because it was canonical's attempt at "convergence" so that ubuntu could be used on PC/phone/tablet back when their plan was to run on those things. A lot of people hate the idea of a desktop OS that looks like a tablet OS. Anyway, I agree, over time I got used to it and don't really mind it now, certainly better than the old gnome 2 menu based desktop.
- NuDinNou 9y ago
  When you have an application maximized, its title bar becomes one with the status bar ( the one with time, network, weather and other indicators)
- yAnonymous 9y ago
  Unity is elegant and simple, yet offers all the functionality I need, has a minimal UI and keyboard shortcuts for everything. Gnome3 is a collection of UI blunders and they (over)spend their funding on political bullshit I don't support.
  - amirouche 9y ago
    reference?
lower 9y ago
I believe that the Ubuntu Gnome Shell will have an extension to give it a Unity-like look, see the series of blog posts here: https://didrocks.fr/ https://didrocks.fr/
- jacek 9y ago
  No global menu though.

zachruss92 9y ago

This is exciting! Coincidentally I have been messing with 17.10 the past few days, and I think it'll solve my display issues with a 3 monitor setup (with one 4k in the middle). That means I can finally be done with SSHing into a linux VM from windows when I want to do development on my gaming PC :)

hnarn 9y ago
I understand that you can't demand the same things from a non-profit ecosystem like Linux like you can from Windows or MacOS, but that being said the lack of good support for multiple monitor setups is infuriating. I've tried to get a "Laptop HTPC" setup working several times and it always takes a bunch of ugly hacks to even make it usable -- and you can forget about doing any of it in any kind of GUI, most of the time that will even make things worse.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  multiple monitor support? you mean like 6-8 monitors? or just 2-3? I have been using ubuntu for 2-3 monitors setup for 10 years, never had any real problem.
  - bryanlarsen 9y ago
    X11 has supported multiple monitors for 30 years
    - orf 9y ago
      Yes, it supports multiple monitors in limitless arbitrary positions. If you want a monitor to the right hand side, one mounted behind you and one above you then you can configure this. However if you want three monitors lined up side by side, this seems to be ridiculously hard to configure at least in Ubuntu. The monitor drag-drop interface in Ubuntu is the worst I have ever seen. We recently had three new hires and had to go through the traumatic experience of setting this up for each of them.

unicornporn 9y ago

Should one be able to upgrade to 17.10 stable when it's out (without too much trouble), or are you stuck in beta “ring” if you install this?

jacek 9y ago
It will upgrade to stable 17.10.
- denisw 9y ago
  To expand on that, there is no “beta“ channel, just a channel per release. If you install 17.10 beta, you‘ll get 17.10 package updates until the day of release, at which point you have the set of package versions that are considered the „stable“ release. After that, the 17.10 channel gets post-release bug and security fixes only.
pipu 9y ago
My understanding is that there's an upgrade path just an do-release-upgrade away. I'm semi sure I've upgraded from beta to stable a few times.

symlinkk 9y ago

How’s the GNOME experience on Ubuntu?

sjburt 9y ago
I've been using the Ubuntu GNOME version for years and it has been pretty rock solid and I've had no complaints.
iagooar 9y ago
The biggest problem I have with GNOME is how boring it is... It's not a bad thing, don't get me wrong, but I wish it would be a bit more interesting, especially if I have to use it 10+ hours a day.
- stevedonovan 9y ago
  Heh, you get to see your desktop? I've usually got so much up that I can't see it. I like boring XFCE for that reason.
- teekert 9y ago
  That is a strange remark, what do mean specifically? Perhaps there is still something like X snow? Or can you have the desktops on a cube with reflections at the bottom and fish inside like in de beryl days?? Otherwise, roaming the KDE settings can be a fun excercise.
jacek 9y ago
IMO it is great. The Ubuntu dock is an improvement, also Ubuntu Gnome will support old style tray icons out of the box. Canonical is making Gnome more usable and attractive to an average user. They are fixing mistakes that Gnome developers are making. Of course that is subjective and controversial opinion, but it seems like Gnome developers are removing useful features and adding useless apps like gnome-recipes instead. Unfortunately, real fractional scaling did not make it to this release (you can test it though). I can't wait for 18.04 which will probably have fractional scaling and will be an LTS release.
- 9y ago

dis-sys 9y ago

10+ years full time Ubuntu user here, I have to say that although I am happy for the fact that Unity is gone, it is too late as I have moved to xfce4. The decision to move to Unity was bad, users choose Linux desktop because they want something simple, something more under their control. The whole unity desktop experience together with that everything is searchable promise is just not the right selling point for that audience. Now many many years in xfce4, that is the exact desktop environment I want. no over engineering rubbish, no forced features, no fancy UI pretending to be cool/smart, just the essential stuff that actually work. If I am going to spend most of time in terminals + chrome, why forcing me to have a fat desktop environment? gnome seems to be fine, used it for many many years before the Unity joke/xfce4, but it is still too fat and it is too late.

stubish 9y ago
Unity was never there to stop you using xfce4, so I'm not sure why removing it is 'too late'. Xubuntu predated Unity by several years. The various desktop flavours are alternatives, not competing forks, even if the one you prefer isn't the default. One of the reasons Ubuntu succeeded is that it supported both Gnome and KDE, even if Gnome happened to be the default, and Xubuntu brought even more users.

clircle 9y ago

What is going to happen to my Ubuntu GNOME desktop when I upgrade? Is it going to stay vanilla or will I have the Ubuntu-ified version of GNOME available in GDM?

kbumsik 9y ago
I am wondering too. There is even no Ubuntu GNOME on the update list. Is it going to be discontinued?
- pkaye 9y ago
  Yes Ubuntu GNOME will be discontinued as determined by the developers. They decided it was better time to contribute to making Gnome better in the Ubuntu distribution itself. There will an additional package you can install to enable standard GNOME configuration.
JamesMcMinn 9y ago
As I understand it, the version of Gnome they're shipping is vanilla Gnome with a few extensions enabled by default, all of which can be disabled using Gnome Tweak. There's no need for a separate session.
jacek 9y ago
You can install gnome-session package. In GDM you will be able to choose between "Ubuntu Session" (Ubuntified Gnome) and "Gnome Session" (vanilla).
colago 9y ago
I just upgraded from Ubuntu GNOME 17.04 via "sudo do-release-upgrade -d" and everything still looks like it did before. After a reboot, the login screen has the purple Ubuntu Unity look and then it switches to the Ubuntu GNOME look.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

pasta 9y ago

I'm using (x)ubuntu for over 10 years and every version there are strange problems that still exist today. For example now my volume control uses 5 steps at once instead of one. So every version I have to search the net for some command line command to fix things. I wont leave Linux anytime soon but I can imagine people get sick of this. Ubuntu is great, but maybe the priority should be flawless instead of yet another window manager/desktop environment.

fulafel 9y ago
Community maintained variants like xubuntu rely entirely on volunteers, so you can make a big difference if you can test things & report bugs during the prerelease versions.
digi_owl 9y ago
The underlying issue is CADT churn in the userland. Every few years or so some new "kid" comes onboard and decides they can rewrite some piece of code over a caffeine fueled weekend. This then effectively solves some surface problems but resets the clock on a whole lot of other issues...
- msla 9y ago
  Yes, blame everything on the young. That isn't biased at all. And the fact young people are more likely to be People of Color due to demographic shifts isn't a factor at all, I'm sure.
  - dang 9y ago
    Would you please stop posting this kind of comment to Hacker News? It breaks the HN guidelines, specifically this one: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." Also this one: "Assume good faith." (<-- Edit: whoops, haven't added that one yet! It's coming.) Blatant nastiness is easier to do something about because it's so obvious. But when people degrade discussion by replying to the worst about each other, the frog boils more subtly. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

mixmastamyk 9y ago

Yeah, Python 3.6 is the default 3.x! Been waiting for that for years.

teekert 9y ago
That is already the case on 16.04 afaik, perhaps even earlier.
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  No, you’ve been able to install it along side 3.5 for a while, but not as python3. I’m on zesty now with 2.7, 3.5, and 3.6.

amirouche 9y ago

This might be a little off-topic, but anyone knows whether gentoo's USE flags will come to debian derivatives?

thomasfortes 9y ago
Probably not, gentoo compiles everything, building deb packages for every possible combination of flags would be almost impossible, and if you add the fact that you can change the flags for a single package then you will get something impossible to do. USE flags and equivalents are a thing that only comes with systems that compile most of the software instead of relying in binaries.
- amirouche 9y ago
  I don't want debian to compile every combination of use flags. I just want to be able to opt-in to use softwares compiled and optimized by me.
kasabali 9y ago
DEB_BUILD _OPTIONS was already a thing. There is now also more formal build profiles feature. (https://wiki.debian.org/BuildProfileSpec https://wiki.debian.org/BuildProfileSpec) this is closest you'll get though, as Debian is not a source distribution and these features are not aimed at users

zeep 9y ago

I wish Gnome would adopt the Dolphin file manager...

digi_owl 9y ago
Or we could perhaps abandon the notion of DEs and let people assemble the tools they want to use for themselves...
- unethical_ban 9y ago
  The number of people who want to do that, that are not doing so now, is approximately the population of Cheyenne, Wyoming. Apple is nearly a trillion dollar company. People want cloud backup, consistent and beautiful UI, and usable, "just works" tools. They're doing something correctly. Sincerely, Someone who owns a Windows PC, an Ubuntu laptop, a Fedora server, an Android personal phone, and an iPhone work phone.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    Apple didn't sell much until they could halo ipod and iphone. And even then what really got ipod etc rolling was itunes and itms for Windows. Beyond that what sold OSX better was a unix cli in a off the shelf hardware package with a support contract. And frankly what people want can be so easily manipulated by marketing that is a real worry.