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> "Well delivery can be just as important as the message." Only if the delivery is offensive, otherwise the message is more important. To give an example, I'm

> "Well delivery can be just as important as the message." Only if the delivery is offensive, otherwise the message is more important. To give an example, I'm a native English speaker, and when I speak with some non-native English speakers they can make some quirky decisions on how they deliver their message. However, if I've understood the underlying message, I'll look past it, and address what they meant. To bring it back to the topic at hand, meta discussions like the one we're having now often start out as a form of deflection. Regardless of the term 'emotional work' (I prefer 'hidden work', you may have a different preference), do you agree that the underlying message of the article is broadly correct? It's not so much about who takes on the 'hidden work', but rather it's about the toll it takes.

Sacho 9y ago
No, because I don't know what the underlying message is - you didn't spell it out, neither did parent, or anyone in this chain. If you unentangle the first example the author gives, she wants to give a task to the man, without explaining how to do it, and then complains that they don't do it properly. But it's not even just that, it's her wrapping this task into a "Mother's Day gift", i.e. forcing the man to do emotional labor to figure out what the woman really wants and how exactly to do it. This is a counter-example to her overall argument, both in her literal words(about emotional labor), and (I'm guessing here) in the underlying meaning of "men should do more of the hidden work"(how do you expect them to do the "hidden work" if you never explain to them that you're doing it, you want to share the responsibility, etc?). If there's a deeper underlying message that I'm missing here, please, I'm interested in knowing about it. But every time I read an article like this, all I can think of is "dysfunctional relationship" and "unreasonable expectations".
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  > "If you unentangle the first example the author gives, she wants to give a task to the man, without explaining how to do it, and then complains that they don't do it properly." This is where you're wrong. The wife makes it very clear to the husband how she wants the job done. This is clear because the husband reluctantly acquiesces to her request before deciding to go with a different approach. Once you accept that the wife's instructions were clear, the rest of your argument falls down.
alexandercrohde 9y ago
No, I actually don't get her larger point. She describes frustrations with her husband (which I feel are not generalizable), and I don't even accept her framework necessarily (it generally seeks to use blame to resolve a marital issue which I find counterproductive, a therapist would never use a word like 'fault').
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  Let's imagine a more extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine you have to become a live-in carer for an elderly relative, and they rely on you to take care of their every need, with very little in the way of time off. Can you see that such a situation, whilst still something that can be carried with dutifully with a minimum of fuss, could still be emotionally draining for someone? If so, what do you think causes the situation to be emotionally draining?
  - alexandercrohde 9y ago
    So I still don't get her larger point. I think we can all agree emotional draining exists, as you articulated. I also agree it happens in relationships. But then she drags gender into it and loses me entirely.
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Gender is "dragged" into it because our social norms are keeping unequal balance of relationship responsibilities alive. The article touches on this when the author describes the difference in behaviour between her children. It's possible to see this anecdote as something that reflects on the innate difference in the personalities of her children, but there is something to said beyond that. It's the whole nature vs. nurture debate again. I can see that the experiences in early childhood shaped the person I am today, and I don't think it's any different for the children of today. How a child is praised (or not praised) shapes what they think of as normal. Can you see that it's possible to reinforce a certain view of what's "men's work" and what's "women's work"?

Sacho 9y ago

No, because I don't know what the underlying message is - you didn't spell it out, neither did parent, or anyone in this chain. If you unentangle the first example the author gives, she wants to give a task to the man, without explaining how to do it, and then complains that they don't do it properly. But it's not even just that, it's her wrapping this task into a "Mother's Day gift", i.e. forcing the man to do emotional labor to figure out what the woman really wants and how exactly to do it. This is a counter-example to her overall argument, both in her literal words(about emotional labor), and (I'm guessing here) in the underlying meaning of "men should do more of the hidden work"(how do you expect them to do the "hidden work" if you never explain to them that you're doing it, you want to share the responsibility, etc?). If there's a deeper underlying message that I'm missing here, please, I'm interested in knowing about it. But every time I read an article like this, all I can think of is "dysfunctional relationship" and "unreasonable expectations".

ZenoArrow 9y ago
> "If you unentangle the first example the author gives, she wants to give a task to the man, without explaining how to do it, and then complains that they don't do it properly." This is where you're wrong. The wife makes it very clear to the husband how she wants the job done. This is clear because the husband reluctantly acquiesces to her request before deciding to go with a different approach. Once you accept that the wife's instructions were clear, the rest of your argument falls down.

alexandercrohde 9y ago

No, I actually don't get her larger point. She describes frustrations with her husband (which I feel are not generalizable), and I don't even accept her framework necessarily (it generally seeks to use blame to resolve a marital issue which I find counterproductive, a therapist would never use a word like 'fault').

ZenoArrow 9y ago
Let's imagine a more extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine you have to become a live-in carer for an elderly relative, and they rely on you to take care of their every need, with very little in the way of time off. Can you see that such a situation, whilst still something that can be carried with dutifully with a minimum of fuss, could still be emotionally draining for someone? If so, what do you think causes the situation to be emotionally draining?
- alexandercrohde 9y ago
  So I still don't get her larger point. I think we can all agree emotional draining exists, as you articulated. I also agree it happens in relationships. But then she drags gender into it and loses me entirely.
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    Gender is "dragged" into it because our social norms are keeping unequal balance of relationship responsibilities alive. The article touches on this when the author describes the difference in behaviour between her children. It's possible to see this anecdote as something that reflects on the innate difference in the personalities of her children, but there is something to said beyond that. It's the whole nature vs. nurture debate again. I can see that the experiences in early childhood shaped the person I am today, and I don't think it's any different for the children of today. How a child is praised (or not praised) shapes what they think of as normal. Can you see that it's possible to reinforce a certain view of what's "men's work" and what's "women's work"?